242 Ballots: Ingram leads by projected 3.2% and in the hard count
It looks like Mike Mark Ingram is starting to pull away from Toby Gerhart and Ndamukong Suh. At 242 ballots counted, he's now up to 43.8%, more than a full point higher than he was at 226 ballots. Gerhart and Suh are locked in a close race for second - Gerhart 40.6%, Suh 39.2%.
In addition, there's been a lot of attention paid to the hard count of votes that we've tracked down. Some folks have even reported in the last couple of days that Suh is "leading in the count", utterly ignoring the regional adjustments made in our projection. (You can't just look at the hard count, since our count has 54 votes in the Southwest and only 18 votes in the Northeast - and we know that actual voter turnout will be roughly the same.)
Nonetheless, for the first time, our hard count now shows Mark Ingram leading - with 325 points. He and Gerhart continue to trail Suh in the number of first-place votes, while Suh trails the two of them in the number of ballots on which he appears.
(Argh, sorry Mark! That's what you get when you're trying to write a post while talking on the phone to your pal Mike.)
Kari Chisholm | December 10, 2009 | Comment on This Post (112 so far) |
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Suh is fantastic. He had what maybe some might possibly think about calling the greatest game in the whole history of football this past Saturday. But he was good all season. Look at the rest of his games this year. He averaged .625 sack per game. Think about it. He was able to average over a half sack per game. OH MY!!! Will there ever be another like him? This guy is incredible. Suh #1.
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 10:26:36 AM
I belive you mean MARK Ingram, not MIKE.
Posted by: Chris | Dec 10, 2009 10:26:44 AM
His name is Mark Ingram...not Mike. For a website that correctly picks the heisman, that's pretty egregious.
Posted by: anonymous | Dec 10, 2009 10:27:02 AM
Mark is starting to pull away and I think by tonight or early tomorrow you will be able to make a projection that he will win the Heisman this year. What a great year for the University of Alabama. Roll Tide!!
Posted by: orion007 | Dec 10, 2009 10:28:39 AM
I'm hoping for a Dewey defeats Truman moment.
Posted by: Rick | Dec 10, 2009 10:28:56 AM
The suspense is killing me! I was not aware of this website until last week. It makes the Heisman Watch quite entertaining. This Heisman race may be one of the closest contests ever. Obviously, as an Alabama supporter and alumnus, I am biased in support of Mark Ingram. However, Suh and Gerhart are exceptional athletes as well and deserve to be finalists.
Good luck, #22! Bring home Bama's first ever Heisman Trophy!
Roll Tide!
>>>>Beat the 'Horns for National Championship #13 for Alabama!
Posted by: BamaTom | Dec 10, 2009 10:30:56 AM
Suh is the greatest. Think about this. He actually played twelve regular season games before the Big Twelve Championship. And this was against probably a really hard schedule. In two of those games he was able to get more than one sack. Think about it. A defensive player gets more than one sack in two games over the course of the whole season. That is off the charts. And the details are even better. He got 1.5 sacks against Kansas State and 1.5 against Arkansas State. That's right, Arkansas STATE. Big time. I bet those voters all across the country didn't realize how spectacular this guy really is. No telling how many more first place votes he could get if they really looked at his whole season and didn't just focus on one game. Total domination every game. Suh #1.
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 10:31:27 AM
td-
"the greatest game in the whole history of football"??????????????????
Are you serious?!?!?!?
Go get a room, homer!!!!
Posted by: Chaos | Dec 10, 2009 10:32:10 AM
Suh is indeed a phenomenal player. I want to remind Nebraska fans of another truly amazing defensive player by the name of Derrick Thomas from Alabama. He dominated football games much like Suh. God rest his soul. He died far too young.
Good luck to all of the finalists.
Roll Tide!
Posted by: BamaTom | Dec 10, 2009 10:34:35 AM
OMG Suh! People who don't vote for Suh should be arrested! SUUUH! Suh invented the game of football. Nobody else is worthy of anything but SUH! SUH recorded EVERY TACKLE MADE IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL THIS YEAR. Nebraska took a penalty every play because they'd use a 1-0-0 defense (Just Suh), and still won every game 100-0. SUUUUUUUH!
Posted by: CrazyHusker | Dec 10, 2009 10:37:51 AM
I can't believe Mike is ahead of Curt McCoy and Tom Tebow.
Posted by: BigAl18 | Dec 10, 2009 10:38:21 AM
Suh is so dominant. He even had five games where he got zero sacks. These were games where guys were really playing hard against him, and sometimes had a guard AND a center fighting him. And this was against top level programs like Kansas, Florida Atlantic, and even Louisiana Lafayette. Its really hard to get sacks against them, just like it is hard against teams that throw all the time like Texas Tech and Oklahoma. But Suh does it. No sacks against any of them. Suh #1.
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 10:38:27 AM
Everyone going gaga over Suh and how he is the greatest ever on the DL. What about Derrick Thomas the year he had 27 sacks. Talk about dominant and he finished 10th in the voting. So all you Suh fans, he doesn't even hold a candle to one of Alabama's greatest.
Posted by: Jordan Coggin | Dec 10, 2009 10:38:29 AM
td, calm down with your sarcasim. The funny thing about your comments is that you don't take into account the fact that he is a DT, and was double/triple teamed on 80-90% of the snaps he was playing. So please stop with all your sarcasim crap it's really getting old.
To give you perspective here are the total stats from Alabama's, Texas', and Florida's ENTIRE DL'S for this past season with Suh's season stats listed last:
Alabama Season Totals
98tkl - 23.5tfl - 9.5sk - 20qbh - 5pbu - 0int - 1ff - 3bk
Florida Season Totals
112tkl - 33tfl - 14sk - 48qbh - 5pbu - 0int - 1ff - 0bk
Texas Season Totals
116tkl - 25.5tfl - 15.5sk - 10qbh - 7pbu - 0int - 2ff - 0bk
Suh Season Totals
82tkl - 23tfl - 12sk - 24qbh - 10pbu - 1int - 1ff - 3bk
As you can see Suh's stats, by themselves compare favorably with those 3 teams ENTIRE D Lines. So please just stop making yourself look dumb.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 10:40:02 AM
td-
My apologies...
I thought your first post was supposed to be serious.
After the second post, I see the dripping sarcasm.
Thanks for the laugh!!!
Posted by: Chaos | Dec 10, 2009 10:40:07 AM
So essentially, Suh is going to lose because of guys like this:
Granted, he doesn't actually confirm what that player would look like. I'm sure if you asked him, he'd say something impossible like 20 sacks and 1,000 tackles, plus 15 interceptions. Also failing to acknowledge how RBs and QBs go as their offensive lines go, as far as production.
Obviously, on defense, everyone contributes a little bit, but on offense, it's one player who does everything.
Posted by: CaptFamous | Dec 10, 2009 10:40:30 AM
He had a great season and one legendary game but he is not a once in a lifetime guy and shouldn't really even be in the conversation for heisman. If there has been a defensive guy in the last 30 years to win it should have been Derrick Thomas in 1988, and he was 10th in the voting.
Stats:
27 sacks (-204 yards)(5 in Texas A&M game)
35+ TFL
90+ tackles
At least 2 block FG's (had 2 against Kentucky)
Possibly the most dominant defensive player ever (had 7 sacks in one game in the pro's just barely missing the 8th).
Posted by: RTR12 | Dec 10, 2009 10:43:43 AM
Holy hell, td. Could you be any more bitter or sarcastic?
Posted by: Trendon | Dec 10, 2009 10:44:43 AM
To the guy who said:
"Look at the rest of his games this year. He averaged .625 sack per game. Think about it. He was able to average over a half sack per game. OH MY!!! Will there ever be another like him? This guy is incredible. Suh #1."
In 1988 Derrick Thomas had 27 sacks. Thats for a single 12 game season. I know he was a LB instead of a DT, but that 2.25 sacks per game stat smokes anything Suh has done. Where did Thomas end up? 10th in the H****** voting.
Posted by: DvlsAdvocat | Dec 10, 2009 10:47:18 AM
Jordan Coggin,
DT was an amzaing player and IMO definitely deserved a chance at the Heisman. But wasn't he an LB or DE at Alabama? I know he was an LB in the Pros. Completely different posistions so to say that he was a better D player than Suh purely becuase of his sack total is a bad comparision because the positions that each player played are completely different.
DT easily one of the best of all time though!
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 10:47:21 AM
Sweet, add Ingram to a long list of forgettable Heisman winners/
Posted by: Brett | Dec 10, 2009 10:52:40 AM
Trevor...Great stats...I was unaware how unproductive Alabama'a D-Line had been this year until I saw your stats.
Think about it....Suh beat or tied their entire D-Line in 6 of those categories...and the others he was barely behind...
That pretty much sums it up. Suh for everything.
Posted by: Tad | Dec 10, 2009 10:53:25 AM
td I am sure that somebody in BFE thinks you are quite witty. Mostly you just appear football ignorant in your ranting. Suh was one of 4 interior linemen in the top 350 in tackles and the only one in the top 200. He was also 3rd in the nation in sacks overall. Guess how many others in the top 10 were interior linemen? You are saying the equivalent of eliminating Ingram or Gerhart because they ranked so low in passing TD's. Funny all the campaigning happening when the votes have all been counted.
Best of luck to all the finalists.
Posted by: Ohioguy | Dec 10, 2009 10:54:31 AM
Another Year of the best player on one of the best couple teams...
This award is truly getting stupid...
Posted by: Tad | Dec 10, 2009 10:54:32 AM
Plus Jordan in 1988 you had Dejon Sanders, Troy Aikman, Barry Sanders (who won), Steve Walsh etc., vying for the award. As a Husker fan I can be honest with myself and say that one of the major reason's he has such a chance is because of the others who are vying for the awards with Suh. If McCoy or Tebow had the year they're were supposed to have Suh wouldn't have even been invited to NYC. But based on that though process and past Heisman performances neither would Ingram or Gerhart.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 10:56:59 AM
Tearrance Cody for Heisman.
Posted by: Garrett | Dec 10, 2009 10:57:56 AM
I consider Suh a winner just by getting the invite to NYC. Its hard for a defensive lineman to even be in the Heisman race at all. Congrats to him. That being said, GO Ingram!
Posted by: Thornhill | Dec 10, 2009 11:00:44 AM
Let's do this... PROOF(ish) STYLE
Facts:
Derrick Thomas did not win the Heisman
Assumptions:
Voters have historically not voted for defenders, regardless of whether they deserve it
Derrick Thomas had a better statistical season than Suh
Better statistics -> more deserving
It follows that:
Derrick Thomas was more deserving of the Heisman than Suh
Also:
~(Derrick Thomas did not deserve the Heisman)
Note: ~ implies the opposite of this statement.
Therefore, the argument:
Derrick Thomas did not deserve the Heisman -> Suh does not deserve the Heisman
is inconclusive, as the initial statement of the conditional is false, therefore the argument is true regardless of whether Suh deserve the Heisman.
Posted by: CaptFamous | Dec 10, 2009 11:00:47 AM
I love how the voters just have to give preferential treatment to the best player on the best team at the end of the year no matter what. Sometimes the player deserves it; however, this is not one of those times. Ingram is a completely forgettable player that had a nice year on the best team in the country (just like every other RB/QB on the best team in the country does).
Had Florida won, Tebow would probably win it and Ingram would be happy just to get the invite. Since Alabama won, voters quickly had to vote for Ingram over the expected Tebow. Suh or Gerhardt should win it because they play on average teams and have played exceptionally well to even get invited to the ceremony! Switch Ingram's and Gerhart's stats and Gerhart is probably not even invited. Suh plays DEFENSIVE TACKLE for crying out loud! If a DT does well enough to even get invited to an award ceremony that ONLY goes to offensive players (to narrow it further, basically only goes to QBs), then he SHOULD win because good RB's and QB's are a dime a dozen every year.
Ingram is going to be the biggest joke winner since Troy Smith. When a defensive tackle gets an invite to win the Heisman and doesn't win, there is something wrong with the system. Like I said, a DT has to play truly outstanding football just to get invited because this is basically an offensive award!! As a result, the DT is automatically a more outstanding player than the QB/RB on the #1 team in the country (a guy that is almost certain to get invited every year):
2009: Ingram (#1) and McCoy (#2)
2008: Bradford* (#1) and Tebow (#2)
2007: Daniel (#1 team on the final week)
2006: Smith* (#1)
2005: Bush* (#1) and Young (#2)
2004: Leinart* (#1), Peterson (#2), White (#2), and Bush (#1)
2003: White* (#1)
2002: Dorsey (#1)
2001: Dorsey (#1)
2000: Weinke* (#2) and Heupel (#1)
1999: Vick (#2)
1998: Bishop (#1 team on the final week)
1997: Woodson* (#1) - Defensive player, but also returned kicks.
1996: Wuerffel* (#2)
1995: Frazier (#1) and Wuerffel (#2)
* Denotes winner
That being said, I hope Alabama beats the **** out of Texas, but Ingram winning the Heisman is a complete joke.
Posted by: Brett | Dec 10, 2009 11:01:18 AM
Suh is the best player. He was a great defensive tackle on a team that only lost 31% of their games. His defensive team was so good. In the final NCAA statistics they were ranked #11 in rush defense and #25 in pass defense. Its hard to do much better than that. Suh #1.
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 11:03:27 AM
An amendment:
First assumption implies:
~(Defender does not win Heisman -> Defender does not deserve Heisman)
Posted by: CaptFamous | Dec 10, 2009 11:04:27 AM
td - most asinine comments ever about Suh. I assume you think Terrence Cody is God's gift to defensive lines, but his numbers don't just pale in comparison to Suh's this year, they're downright laughable. Yet he's up for a lot of the awards Suh has taken already (Nagurski, Lombardi) and the Bednarik tonight. The stats below show just how ridiculous Suh is compared to the nation's other "elite" defensive tackle.
YEAR TEAM TACK SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS
Cody
2009 ALA 25 11 14 0 0 0 0 0 0
Suh
2009 NEB 82 47 35 0 12 0 0 1 0
Posted by: Dan | Dec 10, 2009 11:05:46 AM
In 1988 Derrick Thomas had 27 sacks. Thats for a single 12 game season. I know he was a LB instead of a DT, but that 2.25 sacks per game stat smokes anything Suh has done. Where did Thomas end up? 10th in the H****** voting.
You stated it, now go and try and understand it. He was a linebacker.
Posted by: mike | Dec 10, 2009 11:06:52 AM
Suh is mind blowing good. Don't forget those great Big Twelve games against the best teams in the country. Suh has 4 tackles against Texas Tech, 4 tackles against Oklahoma, and 3 tackles against Kansas. That is spectacular, especially when you consider that these teams are so good. I mean they only lost a combined 16 games and two of those teams are even going to really swell bowl games, the Sun Bowl and the Alamo Bowl. And Nebraska even wins two of those games and only loses the other by 21 points. Read it and weep. Eleven total tackles in three games against the best teams spells H______. Probably no defensive tackle, or even defensive player, has had eleven tackles against great teams in just three games. As Keith Jackson would say, "Whoa Nellly, Suh #1."
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 11:11:44 AM
Suh this and Suh that. Give me a break guys, Derrick Thomas had 27 sacks his junior year at Alabama. 27, IN ONE SEASON. Guess what, he finished 10th in Heisman voting.
So the fact Suh is where he is in the voting shows a lot of respect for his talents. He's not being slighted at all.
Posted by: drweb | Dec 10, 2009 11:12:47 AM
Trevor, Think about the stats you posted. While accurate, not the whole story. What should be counted are the total number of plays by the opposing offense. If Suh made every tackle after a 4 yard gain, he'd end up with over 17 tackles on EVERY drive (assuming 70 yard drives). Too bad stats can be presented to "say" whatever you want them to.
Posted by: DRA | Dec 10, 2009 11:12:55 AM
Dan,
Cody and Suh are two totally different types of DT's. Cody is a space filling NG that takes double and triple teams (like Suh) and holds them from getting to linebackers (Suh beats doubles and triples for tackles and sacks) so that the LB's are free to make plays. You can't compare the two from either the Bama or Nebraska side. I do know that I wish we had Suh playing right next to Cody on the DL at Bama (as I think Nebraska would like the same there).
Posted by: RTR12 | Dec 10, 2009 11:13:29 AM
DRA, not being rude but your comment/post makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 11:17:02 AM
DRA, I don't want to go back and chart Suh's entire season to see where his tackels that were not tackels for loss were made on average as I don't have the patience to do so. But I will say that of his 12 tackles in the BIG XII CCG 7 were for loss and the other 5 happened at the line of scrimmage. Nebrask's D wasn't giving up very many 70 yard drives during season and Suh didn't make a ton of his tackles 4+ yards beyond the LOS.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 11:19:18 AM
SUH? WHAT CONFERENCE DID HE PLAY IN AGAIN? I PROMISE YOU HAD HE PLAYED IN THE SEC WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT NO ONE WOULD EVEN BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION, WHO KNOWS IF HE WOULD HAVE EVEN MADE IT THROUGH THE SEASON.
Posted by: TANKDADDYO | Dec 10, 2009 11:19:19 AM
Suh is an amazing talent, and his performance in the Big 12 Championship game was one for the ages, but if I were a voter I wouldn't be able to bring myself to vote for him knowing that Derrick Thomas had 27 sacks in 1988 and finished a paltry 10th in the Heisman voting.
Posted by: heismanisirrelevant | Dec 10, 2009 11:20:59 AM
DRA, I will say that the teams Nebraska's D faced did have a lot of plays though no 14 play 70 yard drives as Nebraska's D would still get them off the field pretty quickly. The problem was Nebraska's O was so horrible (102nd in country) that they'd just go 3 and out and put Nebraska's D back on the field. So yes I'm sure Suh played more snaps than he would have if Nebraska's O was worth two cents. Thus his stats are better than they probably should be. It can be played two ways though, did he have more chances? Yes. Should he have been gassed a lot more and thus not produced at the level he did every play in every game? Yes. Did he get gassed and not produce even against constant double/triple teams? Nope. And that is why he is the MOPOTY IMO.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 11:24:11 AM
Suh should win it just because of his name! The rest of the guys names are dull, cept for Tebow. But he isn't going to get it again. So yeah, Suh it is!
Posted by: layedbak | Dec 10, 2009 11:26:01 AM
Suh has the most #1 votes, Ingram has the most #2 votes and Gerhart has the most #3 votes. Sounds like a very fitting and simple way to rank finalists for the heisman. Too bad it doesn't work that way.
Posted by: T. Williams | Dec 10, 2009 11:31:20 AM
Come on Alabama fans... Don't act like morons just cause the husker fans are wanting to defend their guy. We all know Suh isn't going to win the award. I just wonder if some of your sarcasm and animosity are due to the guilt that you might have knowing that your mediocre playing is going to win over a truly outstanding player. You can post all the sarcasm you want but if you know anything about football, you know that what Suh has done as a DT is ridiculous. Just an observation of an outside observer. Congrats on the season Bama, but let the pettiness go.
Posted by: Patrick | Dec 10, 2009 11:33:38 AM
You sir are an idiot, because you are using stats that you know nothing about to make comparisons come out the way you want them too. Bama's D line was low on tackles because everyone including Florida knew they couldn't run on them. Consequently they went to a heavy passing game and an outside running game. You will see that our LB's and DB's had litterally hundreds of tackles. McClain alone had 101. As for Nebraska, as great as Suh was, he was only one man. People could still run through your line, and that is why he had so many opportunities to make tackles. Another thing is that he didn't have to face the barrage of outstanding RB's that Bama did. Case in point, Nebraskas' D allowed Ryan Williams of VT 107 yards, and Bamas' D allowed the whole VT O only 155 yards! Quit talking out your ass! RTR!
Posted by: Crimsonite | Dec 10, 2009 11:34:10 AM
Suh is so much better than the Alabama D line! oh no he is not Alabama is undefeated!
I guess SUH is not the second coming after all.
Posted by: TP | Dec 10, 2009 11:37:26 AM
People who are comparing the Alabama D-line to Suh to show stats are not familiar with Alabama's defensive strategy.
Alabama plays a 3-4 front, which is pretty rare in NCAA football.
Terrence Cody and Co. are not really supposed to get many tackles or sacks. Their jobs are to take up two or three OL at a time and leave gaps for big, fast linebackers to get through. It works REALLY well with the right personnel. Alabama can currently lock up five OL with three DL, send a LB or corner on a blitz, fill the running lanes with 6'4", 240lb linebackers, and still drop into coverage.
Posted by: BamaPossum | Dec 10, 2009 11:38:05 AM
You talk about those stats? Alabama runs a 3 4 defense, its not designed for the d-line to make tackles. They take on blockers and linebackers make the tackles. And its the Big 12, the best teams were #22 Nebraska and #3 Texas. What a quality body of work, give me a break
Posted by: rolltide | Dec 10, 2009 11:38:22 AM
Yeah you Bama fans think you're so funny. If SUH played in the SEC, they're rename it the SuhEC. He could play every position on the field, and also be the coach, athletic director, and president of the university. You people who don't think Suh is the greatest are ignorant! That's just ignorant! Don't you guys understand we play both Kansas AND Kansas State?! All Ingram had to do was play against creampuffs like LSU and Florida! SUUUUUUUUUH!
Posted by: CrazyHusker | Dec 10, 2009 11:39:37 AM
OK first off I agree SUH is awesome but this post is for the guy named TD you think SUH hung the moon and hell he may have but let me throw this out at you a guy by the name of DERRICK THOMAS in 1988 he had 88 solo tackles, 44 Qb hurries, 12 tackles for a loss and 27 sacks, yes 27 thats over 2 a game my friend and your creamin in your PJ's over Suh almost havin a sack a game. Fact is defensive players dont get credit and they dang sure get more credit now days than 20 years ago. Guess where Thomas came in on the ballot 10th place. So dont give me this crap about Suh being the best All Time because of the people I know about DT was the best not to say that there is a better 1 than him but I imagine it would be close. DT came 20 years too soon I guess if you guys start handing out Heismans to defensive guys, and hey in my opinion we should but Suh is blessed with exposure and media that cant be bias because of the net. DT we miss you and in our book your the best Bama nation has ever seen RIP you went to soon my friend.
Posted by: Story41 | Dec 10, 2009 11:47:04 AM
If Bama didnt have a guy in the running, I would absolutely pull for suh. It's just crazy when you think about what he has accomplished. However, I think our first heisman trophy is long overdue.
Posted by: Matt | Dec 10, 2009 11:52:39 AM
I told myself I wasn't going to get into this, but here we go... The whole "Alabama's Defensive strategy" argument to defend Cody's low #s is really a bit juvenile. If some of you Bama boys would have watched Suh in more games than just the NE/TX game (I understand that NE is not a must watch priority in most of the country, but I like watching the historical powerhouses play no matter what kind of season they are having), you would see that Suh "took up" just as many O-line as Cody if not more and still put up the #s he did. The difference between Suh and Cody is that Suh actually has the agility and awareness to make plays after he has "taken up" the necessary quota of O-linemen. He doesn't just function as a Volkswagen in the middle of the football field. Stop making excuses for your boy.
PS. Oklahoma St. is in the big 12
Posted by: Patrick | Dec 10, 2009 11:54:57 AM
All of you are a bunch of idiots.
Posted by: Pat N | Dec 10, 2009 11:55:08 AM
I like how Story41 doesn't realize TD is a fellow Alabama fan being sarcastic and making fun of the psycho...errr..."passionate" Nebraska fans.
Posted by: Lols | Dec 10, 2009 11:55:14 AM
What’s all the jawing about of my player is better than yours. The hay is in the barn already. Politicking should have been done before they closed the voting on Monday. Now is the time to search and post how H_____ voters voted if not known.
Posted by: Jed | Dec 10, 2009 11:56:32 AM
Please stop comparing LB's to DT's everyone, they're such different positions it's not even a good comparison. If you want to compare Suh to other great players from the D side of the ball then compare him to Hugh Green, Rich Glover, and Warren Sapp.
Just stop being retarded about this.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 11:57:40 AM
Trevor, I was only pointing out that if a player has more oportunities to make a play, they will make more of them. Especially if they are great players, like Suh. The fact that Nebraska's offense was not so hot, only helped him "pad his stats". That's all. You were stating as fact that the 3 top defenses in the country were only a little better than Suh by himself. It was not a shot at Suh. Only a shot at your skewed perspective.
Posted by: DRA | Dec 10, 2009 12:00:14 PM
I'm a loyal Bama fan and I want to see Ingram win our 1st H------ trophy. I'm so proud of our team and players and what they've been able accomplish. That's not to take anything away from the other candidates. We can compare stats from here until eternity but we won't "know" who the best player is until they meet on the field. These guys are all high calibre players and they will get their opportunities to settle this discussion in the NFL.
Roll Tide and Ingram 3 H---- (that stiff arm thing). :)
Posted by: JBT | Dec 10, 2009 12:00:34 PM
Sorry - that's Ingram 4 H------
Posted by: JBT | Dec 10, 2009 12:01:10 PM
Mark Ingram is probably not even objectively the 'most outstanding' player on his team. Anyone who thinks that he is 'valuable' is a fool. How could you even argue that? Alabama relied on defense and balance. His best performances came in blowouts and his worst in close games. Just because he played well against Florida does not make him the winner. Think about this: regardless of his stats, would anyone have voted for Ingram if Alabama had lost to Florida? No. Look at a guy like Gerhart, Suh, or even McCoy who had to show up every week or else his team was in danger of losing. And for Gerhart, even when Stanford lost, he was exceptional. He led them to victories over 5 top 25 teams, something Alabama and their 'tough schedule' couldn't dream of. Look over at Ingram: He's a guy who was out-rushed BY HIS BACKUP in 3 games and HAD 5 GAMES WITH UNDER 100 YARDS RUSHING. Without him doing anything, his team WON 11 GAMES LAST YEAR. I don't care how you break that down, he is a truly non-essential piece to that puzzle, and an inconsistent, non-essential piece at that. Take him off the team and they still win, maybe drop one close one. Take Toby, McCoy, Suh off of their teams, and you're probably talking about 4 less victories because these are guys who Change The Game. Opposing game plans are modeled to stop Gerhart, as he faces 9+ in the box every single down. Suh gets triple teamed and beats the help. Ingram? Well, if I had a choice, I would take away Julio Jones and try to force Alabama to go on long drives, which their sometimes inconsistent offense has shown an inability to do. FYI Gerhart is nation's-touchdown-and-yard-leading running back for the #10 ranked offense in the country which starts a freshman at QB. Ingram isn't top 3 in any category. In any other sport, giving a player an MVP-type award just because he's on a winning team would be balked at. Think about it Ingram lovers... Peyton gets the MVP when he doesn't win the Superbowl and Pujols gets it when the Cards don't win the World Series because we value on-field production and leadership for individual awards more than something like wins which depends on total team effort, intangibles, coaching, the O-line, clock management, etc...
Posted by: PlayoffsForCollege | Dec 10, 2009 12:03:41 PM
I think you also have to consider the tackles and sacks made possible by the double and triple teams that Suh drew. The fact they had to use that many bodies to try and stop him accounted for great season for the whole Nebraska defense!
Posted by: Katie | Dec 10, 2009 12:06:12 PM
I wouldn't call Alabama's D-line unproductive b/c I think of the 3 teams mentioned, Texas and UF run 4-3's verse Bama who run's a 3-4 (not 100% sure of that). Say a team run's 60 plays a game over 13 games, that's 780 snaps to skew those stats. With that being said, I would expect Bama's LB stats to be higher.
Posted by: TidePride96 | Dec 10, 2009 12:10:02 PM
Lasting memories for each Stiff Arm Trophy candidate:
McCoy: A sublime game vs. Texas A&M to keep Texas undefeated, followed by an epic meltdown in the Big 12 Championship game - in which he almost singlehandedly cost his team the game, if not for referees' assistance.
Tebow: In tears as his team got blasted by Alabama.
Ingram: Failed to make it to the stadium in the game vs. Auburn as an impostor played in his place. The impostor almost cost the team the game before he was finally replaced. Bounced back with a good game vs. Florida.
Gerhart: Ran over players left and right as he came up huge in the biggest games. Clutch, consistent performer.
Suh: A dominant force for Nebraska as he led the Blackshirts to an impressive bounceback season. Nebraska would've won the Big 12 Championship Game if it weren't for phantom pass interference calls, and other questionable penalty decisions.
I think there's something wrong with the voters - Gerhart and Suh seemed to be the best out of the lot. The others play for better teams, but last time I checked, the Stiff Arm Trophy wasn't supposed to be an award for skill position players on offense for top-ranked teams. Funny how it always seems to work out that way.
Posted by: dsong | Dec 10, 2009 12:11:26 PM
DRA,
Skewed perspective? How is my perspective skewed? I pointed out the fact that Nebraska's O sucks and thus put their D and Suh on the field more than they should have been. That's not Suh's fault and he did take advantage of it by playing his butt off on all of those plays. Also the fact that he literally played 80-90% of his snaps with double and triple teams on him and still put up the numbers he did is what is so amazing to me. I'm not super old, 31, but I've never seen a DT do what he did the last half of last season and really this entire season when every team he played was game planning for him.
Posted by: Trevor | Dec 10, 2009 12:13:30 PM
Like Tad, I would have been impressed with the statistics offered by Trevor -- if they were only accurate! He says Alabama's defensive line only had 98 tackles all year. First, let's forget the different styles of defense played by the two schools, since Alabama's d-line is given the job of occupying blockers to allow linebackers to make the majority of tackles. Or that Alabama did a much better job of controlling the ball this year than did Nebraska, such that Nebraska (and Suh) had 904 plays run by opposing offenses, while Alabama's d-line only had 774 plays run against it. Instead, let's just look at tackle figures for Alabama's 2-deep on the defensive line, since they routinely rotate at least 6 defensive linemen every game, which has to reduce their opportunity to make tackles and build up statistics. DE Marcell Dareus, 32 tackles; DT Terrence Cody, 25; DE Brandon Deaderick, 22; DE Lorenzo Washington, 19; DT Josh Chapman, 14; and DE Luther Davis, 11. That adds up to 123. It doesn't mean Suh is not an outstanding defensive tackle - he certainly is, and should have (and did) beat COdy for the awards they were both finalists for. However, let's at least get the statistics right. (And by the way, Alabama plays a 3-4, while Nebraska plays a 4-3; if you include tackles by the Jack linebacker who is basically a hybrid DE/OLB, these numbers go way up.) In the long run, the fact is that Ingram, Gerhart, Suh and McCoy are all outstanding players who would each be a worthy winner. Unfortunately, only one can win. That does not demean the others.
Posted by: afox | Dec 10, 2009 12:14:22 PM
The projections seem to show 2 "immutable truths" (really, nothing more than my opinion, but I digress...);
1) The top 4 of Ingram, Gerhart, Suh and McCoy are all FAR AND ABOVE Tim Tebow, who sits in 5th. However, Tebow was invited to New York. So, either he is on MANY ballots that are unaccounted for thus far, or he was invited as a courtesy to a previous winner/multiple finalist.
2) Ingram is leading Gerhart despite chatter before the SEC title game seeming to indicate that Gerhart was far and above Ingram after his dismal performance vs. Arkansas. Now that Ingram seems to be leading, it would appear that many of Ingram's voters fall into the "best player on the best team" category and/or "who made the best statement at the end of the season" category. I call these folks the "Too Damned Lazy to Pay Attention to a Whole Season" voters. It's these kinds of voters who are making this award less and less relevant. The award is SUPPOSED to go to the Best College Football Player for THE SEASON... Again, just my opinion, but that would either be Gerhart (who seemed to get better as the season progressed) or Suh. Arguments can be made for guys in "lesser conferences", like Kellen Moore, etc... But...
Posted by: Mike | Dec 10, 2009 12:16:35 PM
I'm an avid husker fan and think all 3 of the top candidates are worthy of the award. Suh did produce all season long, but since the huskers weren'w winning all their games, he didn't get enough attention. I believe that the current stats will probably be the final outcome of the race, however my hope is that after this year the voters will pay more attention throughout the year. I'm just proud that he got invited and his payoff will be much better in the future. He already won the lombardi and nagurski awards and is still up for 3 more major awards. Because of that, I think his legacy will be much greater and include the #1 overall pick in the draft.
Posted by: JRod | Dec 10, 2009 12:22:17 PM
Bama fans...Derrick Thomas finished 10th in the Heisman race, with 12 total votes, one for every open field tackle he made over his entire career at Alabama and the NFL.
Thomas is probably the greatest pure pass rusher in NFL history. His ability to force fumbles, etc... He may have the record for most sacks in a game, but by your logic, that wasn't very good because they still lost that game.
To beat DT, teams would simply run directly at him, which is why many times, they didn't play him on short yardage downs. He was no Lawrence Taylor or Ndamukong Suh. He might have been the most fertile Alabama player though.
:-)
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 12:27:04 PM
Suh's stats are ridiculous! He alone has more tackles, tackles for losses, sacks, QB hurries and blocked kicks than the entire defensive lines for Florida, Alabama and Texas!!! That's sick! One man has better stats than entire defensive lines of the top teams in the country. But he won't win the Heisman. Total joke!
Posted by: Drew | Dec 10, 2009 12:31:11 PM
Trevor, don't be offended by the word "skewed". It only means "Ya ain't lookin' at it right." Afox said it well in his response, so I'll leave it alone. Have a nice day.
Nebraska and Stanford would be a good game.
Posted by: DRA | Dec 10, 2009 12:31:42 PM
MIKE, IT IS JUST YOUR OPINION, BUT IF IT IS TOTALY STUPID AND BIAS, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. INGRAM WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE NCAA AS WELL AS ON THE BEST TEAM IN THE BEST CONFERENCE. ROLL MARK ROLL.
Posted by: KC CRAWFORD | Dec 10, 2009 12:34:47 PM
ERIC IN KC, KANSAS CITY ACTUALY BEAT THE SEATLE SEAHAWKS ON THE GLORIOUS SUNDAY.
Posted by: KC CRAWFORD | Dec 10, 2009 12:38:18 PM
@ KC CRAWFORD...get your facts straight man. This is from KC Chiefs.com
http://www.kcchiefs.com/history/90s/
"Thomas established an NFL single-game record with 7.0 sacks in an inspiring Veterans Day performance vs. Seattle (11/11), a game the Seahawks miraculously won, 17-16, on a last-second, 25-yard TD pass to WR Paul Skansi by future Chiefs QB Dave Krieg."
Are you Forrest Gump?
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 12:46:51 PM
Monte Poole voted Gerhart #1
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_13964745?nclick_check=1
Posted by: Conrad | Dec 10, 2009 12:48:01 PM
@ KC CRAWFORD
Oh and by the way, the game was played on Veteran's Day, November 11th, 1990...A WEDNESDAY!
Ha! Ha! You are Forrest Gump!
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 12:48:38 PM
KC Crawford is delusional Ingram might not be the best player on Bama, his back up looked just as good if not better against FL and Cody has more of an impact on the games played then Ingram.
Posted by: Toby | Dec 10, 2009 12:48:47 PM
Alabama doesn't win vs Florida without the play of their QB. Suh was ALWAYS the best player on the field in every game.
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 12:51:52 PM
Suh had a wonderful season. I just don't follow the logic that he gets .625 sacks/game and he is the greatest ever. If he is the greatest ever, then what do you call Derrick Thomas?
Derrick Thomas, 1988 Season @ Alabama
39 tfl - 27 sacks - 44qb hurries
Posted by: DT | Dec 10, 2009 12:58:06 PM
Suh couldn't hold up DT's nuts. Get over it
Ingram will win the heisman. Nuff said, move on
Posted by: ALLBIASEDPEOPLE | Dec 10, 2009 12:59:55 PM
@ DT
Derrick Thomas was a pass rushing specialist that only had the responsibility of rushing the QB. DTs are responsible for clogging up the middle and forcing the play outside (to guys like DT) or making the play at the line of scrimmage. Even in the pros, Derrick never became a total package LB, who played the run as effective as he played the pass rush. Lawrence Taylor is the best.
Why didn't Charles Woodson have more tackles, yet he won the Heisman Trophy? Does that mean he was a better or worse than DT? They don't play the same positions. Compare Suh to your fat DL and he is BY FAR a more complete player...but don't take my word for it. Mel Kiper has called him the best defensive prospect he has seen in his 32 years! Yes, 32 years. That includes 1988 when DT played.
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 1:04:21 PM
Plus, DT had faster sperm!
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 1:04:58 PM
Derrick Thomas was unreal should have won the H, goes to show Suh has no chance of winning, although he has won the Lombardi, Nagurski, and will probably win the Outland, Bednarik, and Walter Camp. Suh like Thomas is a dominant force who takes games over, best college football player in the nation, but who wont win the H.
Posted by: Toby | Dec 10, 2009 1:07:52 PM
Suh is spectacular. Check out the Suh sack totals:
Texas Tech 0
Oklahoma 0
Kansas 0
Fla Atlantic 0
La Lafayette 0
TOTAL 0
Suh#1
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 1:09:56 PM
PLUS, in 1988, ALABAMA was 9-3, with losses to teams like 5-6 Ole Miss at home, 8-4 LSU at home, and 10-2 Auburn on the road.
Everyone raves about LSU, Auburn, and Ole Miss and how good they were.
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 1:15:56 PM
@td...
our coaches pulled Suh out of those games in the 1st quarter because they don't believe in padding stats...
;-)
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 1:17:11 PM
When do you think you have your "final projection"?
Posted by: JP | Dec 10, 2009 1:18:23 PM
Its just not right to have to pick between offense and defense for the one best player.Regardless of who wins,a million people will be crying about it.And why? Over 900 people from all regions vote on it so just give congrats to the winner and move on!
Posted by: dj | Dec 10, 2009 1:36:21 PM
Trevor...why don't you quit making yourself look dumb? Do you even know anything about Alabama's defense? Alabama runs a 3-4 defense, while Nebraska runs a 4-3 defense. Even without Suh, Nebraska's DEFENSIVE LINE would be expected to have more impressive statistics.
Perhaps you should learn how to spell "sarcastic" before reproving your idiocy.
Posted by: Taylor | Dec 10, 2009 1:44:10 PM
If that's Suh's stats, may want to pull the rest of the Nebraska's defensive line's scholarships and give them to someone else. They couldn't have been doing crap.
Posted by: Faron Davis | Dec 10, 2009 1:47:32 PM
@ td
Suh's actual game by game stat line
7, 5, 8, 6, 6, 4, 8, 5, 4, 3, 9, 5, 12
He had 23 TFL as a DT.
Derrick Thomas had 88 tackles...39 TFL. I would say DT was a better pass rusher and Suh was a better football player.
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 1:48:47 PM
I hate Texas but after reading these post and seeing how dumb Alabama fans are I want nothing more than Texas to win this game. Alabama is to dumb to deserve to win.
I wonder if we will ever see another 1,500 yard in my lifetime? On wait there is one every year.
Posted by: td is dumb | Dec 10, 2009 1:56:41 PM
Actually, because they were on the field so much their front four starters...
Suh 82 T with 23 TFL (12 sacks)
Crick 70 T with 25 TFL (9.5 sacks)
Turner 49 T with 21 TFL (5.5 sacks)
Allen 47 T with 13 TFL (3 sacks)
Back-ups
Meredith 21 T with 5 TFL (1.5 sacks)
Steinkuler 17 T
Safe to say that these "supporting" players greatly benefited from the double teaming of Suh and offenses running away from him.
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 1:59:39 PM
Why didn't anybody vote for Derrick Thomas this year. Sounds like he is the great player ever.
Why should Ingram win because Troy Davis had over 2,000 yards rushing. Troy Davis didn't win and he had way better stats than Ingram.
Oh that right stat alone don't win the award and another detail you have to play this year. So lets leave the 1988 stats in the books. Why would you compare DE stat to DT unless you are an idiot anyways. If you are going to do it compare people in the pass to SUH numbers get another DT.
Posted by: td is dumb | Dec 10, 2009 2:09:06 PM
ERIC IN KC, IS KIPER YOUR CORN COB I MEAN CORNHUSKER BUDDY. DO YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS. BE A LEADER NOT A FOLLOWER. ROLL TIDE. BY THE WAY FOREST GUMP, GREAT MOVIE IT ALSO TOOK HOME THE BIG PRIZE LIKE INGRAM WILL.
Posted by: KC CRAWFORD | Dec 10, 2009 2:09:23 PM
This is to all the 'Bama fans, mainly Afox who said that basically Nebraska's defensive scheme is why Suh has the stats he has. This is from an article in the Lincoln Journal Star, www.huskerextra.com - just pay attention to the first paragraph.
'Greatest decision he ever made'
Posted by: Steve Sipple at 3:16PM CST on December 10, 2009
Something to ponder in the hours before the college football awards show begins at 6 p.m. on ESPN from Lake Buena Vista, Fla.
Ndamukong Suh's decision to return for his senior season couldn't have turned out much better. Carl Pelini admits he was nervous at times about how it would all work out for Suh this season in part because playing DT in Nebraska's system "doesn't always lend itself to getting the accolades," Pelini said.
Well, Suh's getting his share of accolades.
"I'm just glad it all worked out the way it did," the Nebraska defensive coordinator/defensive line coach said Thursday. "I feel so much better."
Carl Pelini attended the Lombardi Award ceremony Wednesday night in Houston, where he caught up with good friend Bob Stoops, the Oklahoma head coach. Stoops had two high-profile players -- Jermaine Gresham and Sam Bradford -- who decided after last season to hold off on the NFL only to suffer early-season injuries this year.
"Shoot, it was a tough thing for them," Carl said. "But for Suh, it was the greatest decision he ever made."
Posted by: T | Dec 10, 2009 2:11:23 PM
@ KC CRAWFORD
Oh yes, Mel Kiper is so loyal to Nebraska football players. Put down your sister long enough to hear this.
You are an idiot and if you were from Nebraska, you wouldn't even bring our state IQ down because we have enough smart people to offset your dumba$$. In Alabama, however, you are probably a Rhodes Scholar. KC Crawford, you are a God damn genius!
By the way, do you still have the recipes for "schrimp and potatoes" or "schrimp ka-bob" or "schrimp stew"?
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 2:16:24 PM
Suh is unbelievable. He single-handedly dominates every team he plays. That game last Saturday was not even near as good as some of his games this season that most people may have missed. His solo tackle numbers are amazing. One against Oklahoma, one against Virginia Tech, and one against Louisiana Lafayette. That's right, not one of those marginal schools. Louisiana LAFA
YETTE. And he really stepped it up against Kansas and doubled his solo tackles to two. Two in one game. Suh #1
Posted by: td | Dec 10, 2009 2:18:24 PM
@td
Cody only AVERAGED 2 tackles and 3 cheeseburgers per game this year! To defend Suh vs KU, the coaches decided to make them contain to avoid the QB draw and shovel pass. He put the team first.
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 2:24:56 PM
td and KC Crawford must be cousins on their sisters side
Posted by: Eric in KC | Dec 10, 2009 2:25:37 PM
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