226 Ballots: Ingram lead holds, but Suh climbing on Gerhart
Now at 226 ballots - 24.4% of all Trophy ballots - Mark Ingram's lead is holding at 42.4%. Toby Gerhart remains narrowly behind him, but his lead over Ndamukong Suh has shrunk from 3.1% to 1.6%.
Colt McCoy's total dropped ever-so-slightly. We're now confident that McCoy is going to remain in fourth place. Tim Tebow remains in fifth.
It is, of course, fairly stunning that 2008's second-place and third-place finishers will finish fourth and fifth in 2009. Most observers expected a huge Trophy battle royale between the two of them (along with 2008 winner Sam Bradford).
The regional breakdown continues to show substantial regional differences - though with Ingram leading the pack in three of the seven regions (plus leading our list of voters whose region we don't know, mostly national broadcasters.)
Kari Chisholm | December 9, 2009 | Comment on This Post (143 so far)
This says it all, from a Tweet I saw:
"Any former Heisman winners had 5 sub-100 rushing yards games; averaged 2.95 ypc last 2 gms; outrushed in 3 gms by backup?"
Ingram's not a Heisman-quality back but Gerhart is? Do you honestly believe Toby Gerhart would be the starting tailback at Alabama? Hell, at best he'd be third string, and anyone who's honest and has the slightest football acumen would agree.
Derek Locke and Randall Cobb at Kentucky each had more than 500 yds rushing in the SEC. Gerhart is as good or better than those two. Don't weaken your Ingram argument by making over the top, irrational claims. Ingram doesn't need much help. He had a very good year.
You know what else Locke and Cobb have in common? They BOTH went for over 100 yds against Auburn (on only 19 and 12 carries, respectively). Again, Ingram went 16 carries for 30 yards against Auburn.
You should do some research yourself Unbiased. Pelini has never worked for Saban. He was at Nebraska when Saban won his national championship and he didn't go to LSU until 2005, the year Saban left for the NFL.
Ok, let's clear up a myth. Bo Pelini never worked for Nick Saban. They both worked for Bill Belichek, but at different times. Saban knew of Pelini when Saban was HC at Toledo and Pelini was playing HS football in Ohio and also later when Saban was AC at Cleveland under Belichek and Pelini was HC at Cardinal Mooney HS in Ohio. Later he knew of Pelinis' accomplishments under Sabans' mentor Belichek while Pelini was at New England and then later at Green Bay and Nebraska. Finally, when Saban left LSU and took his DC with him to Miami, he recomended Pelini to Les Miles. That's all the connection there is between Saban and Pelini. Can we get back to the H------ now? RTR!
i agree with you kc, crawford
ingram does carry that team
and everyone else on the team still puts in a great deal of work but i think that ingram is that go to guy
UNBIASED - You are an idiot!!! Nick Saban is one of the most brilliant defensive minds EVER in college football. To say that Pelini got nothing from Saban is just stupid. I'll give it to Pelini, he's good enough to carry the dumbest football coach in the world to a NC. But I'll also say that LSU didn't deserve to be there that year. Georgia was better than LSU, LSU beat a crappy Tennessee team to jump Georgia. Les Miles is a moron, the smartest thing he has done at LSU is hire Pelini. Having said that, there is no question that Saban taught Bo alot.
KC CRAWFORD - YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
This is the most repetitive, useless and continuous beating of a dead horse I have ever seen. Days of nothing but the same BS over and over and over again, with more days still to come! Don't you morons realize that nobody who's reading your posts gives a shit what you think? And from the content of a huge portion of the posts that I have read, I can understand why! The truth is, your opinions mean nothing, and the way you would vote means nothing - even if you were qualified to vote, which 95% of you are not! The votes have been cast! The race is over! You just haven't been informed of the results yet. The early returns indicate that Mark Ingram is going to win, so get used to it. Realize that Ingram will carry the 3 Eastern regions and the rest will be split between Gerhart and Suh. It's over people! RTR!
Mike, if you know anything about Alabama and Auburn football, you know that Auburn would forfiet every game of the season for victory over Alabama. To be the only school in the state to have a Heisman winner was their main objective of the game. Sure they wanted to win but put too much effort into stopping Ingram. And Toby G. would have only gained about 500 yards aginst SEC talent. Oh by the way he declared for the NFL, then he will see real SEC competition. Are you serious Pac 10 WHAT A BLEEPING FARSE. PIPE DREAMER
I think one thing we notice from all of these post is that each person posting has a favorite and really never watched the other players or only saw the highlights. I'm an Alabama fan so you can guess who I hope wins. We are really getting off subject of what this trophy stands for. I believe that all the players on this list are well deserving. This is the greatest time ever to be a college football fan. Teams now are much better than 10 years ago, and better then, than 10 years before that. For these canidates to achieve what they have, against teams that they did, really proves this. ROLL TIDE!
Looks like I picked a bad week to quit drinking.
Pelini NEVER coached under Saban! Pelini was at Nebraska, Oklahoma and L.S.U. Frank Solich hired Pelini out of the NFL where he was an assistant. When Solich was fired that year, so was Pelini and he then went on to be a D coordinator for Oklahoma. After that, LES MILES hired Pelini at L.S.U! Pelini was NEVER under Nick Saban, NEVER!
Well, I have never seen Gerhart play, nor Suh, so I cannot comment on them. I simply watch Alabama football. However, when some on here state that Ingram is not a worthy candidate, I just have to beg to differ. He only had one bad game: the Auburn game, and that is because Auburn loaded 8 men in the box and had a middle linebacker shadowing him all game. Otherwise, he played his best in big games, against the best competition. Florida had had only 3 rushing touchdowns scored on them all year. How many does Ingram score on them? 3. He gets over 100 yards, plus has a 70-yard or so screen pass, against Florida's defense, one of the best in college football? Ingram has only lost one fumble in his entire career so far, and he has phenomenal yards after contact (over 800, I think). Again, this is against SEC defenses. Also, he rotated with another excellent freshman back, Trent Richardson, or else Ingram would have had far more carries and even better numbers. He is the all-time single-season rushing record holder at Alabaman, eclipsing fine running backs like Bobby Humphrey, Siran Stacy, etc. Thus, he is fully worthy of the trophy, and if he wins it, would it really be such a travesty of justice?
Wow. The zealous passion for Suh is off the charts!
He's no doubt a GREAT football player. Dude is a BEAST. But, many of you have completely lost sight of what the Heisman trophy has become in recent years--typcially, it has gone to the best player on the best team. There have been exceptions, of course (i.e., Tebow). Is that necessarily in line with what the Heisman is SUPPOSED to be? Likely not. But, that's the way a LOT of the voters vote nowadays.
If Nebraska were undefeated, then sure, I could see Suh getting a lot of votes. But, to be honest, Nebraska's not undefeated. Their offense is abysmal. Suh might have been a one man wrecking crew, but as an earlier poster pointed out--he had his best game in Nebraska losses. For me, a true defensive player can only win if he turns losses into wins. Would Nebraska be that much worse than 9-4 without him? I doubt it.
Getting back to what the Heisman has become, it basically boils down, to a lot of voters, of Ingram vs. McCoy. Last Saturday, McCoy looked like garbage, while Ingram had a great game. So, a lot of voters automatically voted for Ingram.
Regardless of your opinion of Ingram, he DID rush for a school record number of yards during an SEC schedule with less carries than Gerhart. Did he have bad "not Heisman worthy" is ridiculous, especially if you're a rabid Suh supporter.
I don't think you guys pushing Gerhart realize that he'd be 3rd string at Alabama....maybe 4th behind Roy Upchurch. He's the lucky recipient of playing in the pac-10. I just don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
Pelini never coached with Saban. Are you guys drunk?
It's funny to see people talk about how Suh "didn't have the stats." The problem with that is you have to see what other defensive tackles are doing. If not, it's like saying Jamal Lewis should win the NFL MVP over Peyton Manning because Lewis had more rushing yards. Let's compare apples to apples here.
The top three DTs in the nation this year, according to most award committees, are Suh, Gerald McCoy, and Terrence Cody. Here are the stats:
T. Cody: 25 tackles, 6 TFL, 0 sacks, 1 pass defensed, 3 QB hurries, 2 blocked kicks.
G. McCoy: 31 tackles, 14.5 TFL, 5 sacks, 2 passes defensed, 11 QB hurries, one forced fumble.
N. Suh: 82 tackles, 23 TFL, 12 sacks, 10 passes defensed, 24 QB hurries, 3 blocked kicks, one interception, one forced fumble.
Suh more than DOUBLES the numbers put up by his top competition in almost every category. In fact, you could add Cody and McCoy's stats together and Suh would still beat them--IN EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY. If Ingram had more rushing yards and touchdowns than Gerhart and Spiller COMBINED, would we even be talking about anyone else for Heisman??
what the inbreds like 'roll tide' don't realize is that the pac-10 is the best conference in the west, yet bama got their poo pushed in by utah (mountain west) in a bcs game last year. way to go, sec. you're lucky you're playing texas and not tcu.
Suh is the greatest. Think about this. He actually played twelve regular season games before the Big Twelve Championship. And this was against probably a really hard schedule. In two of those games he was able to get more than one sack. Think about it. A defensive player gets more than one sack in two games over the course of the whole season. That is off the charts. And the details are even better. He got 1.5 sacks against Kansas State and 1.5 against Arkansas State. That's right, Arkansas STATE. Big time. I bet those voters all across the country didn't realize how spectacular this guy really is. No telling how many more first place votes he could get if they really looked at his whole season and didn't just focus on one game. Total domination every game. Suh #1.
You people with your SEC bias are just looney. If Ingram is sooooo good, then why is he splitting time? If he was the best back, he would be on the field! Also, Nebraska has the number one scoring defense which is equivalent to the number one defense. Who cares how many yards someone cant put up on the stat sheet...at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the scoreboard. With that said, The big 12 is not an average offensive conference. The big 12 is one of the best offensive conferences as well as 3 (Texas, Oklahoma and Nebraska) top defenses in the nation. Ingram should not win this award! He should not be in second place either.
1. Suh (already picked up most outstanding defensive player and linemen of the year awards and going to add 5 more trophies with the H-man on top)
people let's look at this with a clear mind. mark ingram did what he has done against some of college football best teams. no other player can say that. let's look at the whole picture not just one game. which player can say they played florida,lsu,vt,and ten and all are wins.
Pelini DID NOT coach under Nick Saban! Good Lord people. Trying to find things to argue about. Pelini coached at LSU 2005-2007 for Les Miles, who got there in 2005, after Saban left. Save to say, with the Les Mile LSU offense, Pelini's LSU defense won the NC for LSU. Same story this year. If Nebraska had last year's offense, we wouldn't be talking about Alabama and Texas for the NC, we would be talking about Alabama and Nebraska for the National Championship. All I have to say to that is 38-6!
Suh is so dominant. He even had five games where he got zero sacks. These were games where guys were really playing hard against him, and sometimes had a guard AND a center fighting him. And this was against top level programs like Kansas, Florida Atlantic, and even Louisiana Lafayette. Its really hard to get sacks against them, just like it is hard against teams that throw all the time like Texas Tech and Oklahoma. But Suh does it. No sacks against any of them. Suh #1.
KC Crawford...you, who support Alabama, are calling Nebraska fans inbred?
By the way, the Heisman is awarded to the MOST OUTSTANDING, not the MOST DESERVING. Just because you have only won 1 NC in the last 20 years, been on probation more than once, got beat by Nebraska 38-6 in 1972, and had your sister turn you down...don't go projecting on us.
Seriously? The best defensive player ever? Let me guess what part of the country you're from. Suh is a beast, and had a good year and one GREAT game. The Best defensive player ever managed 1.5 sacks against Arkansas State? He's an outstanding talent, but let's not be foolish. Both RB's are deserving. McCoy hurt himself by a poor performance against Nebraska. I tip my hat to Ingram, considering the teams he played against and his tremendous Yards after Contact.
If the SOUTHWEST is so biased, why is Ingram second, leading McCoy and Gerhart? On the other hand, Ingram has almost DOUBLE the points on the East coast as Suh. So, isn't it safe to say that Ingram has benefitting from the East Coast bias, and at the same time, is coming in 2nd in a region where Suh, McCoy, and Gerhart all played?
Do people really think the fact that Gerhart doesn't have good running backs behind him HELPS him? That's insane. The fact that Alabama has very, very good back-ups for Ingram helps Ingram tremendously. It takes off a ton of pressure, allows him to stay fresh, and is going to obviously help his YPC. Gerhart, meanwhile, HAS to be the guy. Teams go into play Stanford knowing that they have to stop Gerhart. The focus is ALWAYS on him. When the focus is on Ingram....you get the Auburn game.
"He only had one bad game: the Auburn game, and that is because Auburn loaded 8 men in the box and had a middle linebacker shadowing him all game"
This is what teams did to Gerhart ALL SEASON.
Are we seriously criticizing a defensive tackle because he "only" had 1.5 sacks in a game?
hello...all of the canidates are nominated for a reason.they are all great and deseving.i think mark ingram has faced the best defences all year each game.he should win the heisman for sure!
Here is a reason that I haven't heard yet, but with the logic used on this board, it will fit right in.
Forrest Gump wasn't smart enough to get into Nebraska or Stanford...but was offered to walk-on at Texas and Florida, and a full-ride at Alabama.
I'm not criticizing him. If you read my post, I'm simply arguing that calling him the greatest defensive player ever is a little over the top.
Suh is fantastic. He had what many are calling the greatest game in the whole history of football this past Saturday. But he was good all season. Look at the rest of his games this year. He averaged .625 sack per game. Think about it. He was able to average over a half sack per game. OH MY!!! Will there ever be another like him? This guy is incredible. Suh #1.
Can you please post the link to an article or two that says that? And please, don't send me someone's BLOG or anything from HuskerPedia. Thanks.
Are you at all concerned about systematic interference by the Heisman trust? They obviously are not a fan of your site, having threatened lawsuits and such - but I'm sure they want nothing more than for you to get it wrong.
Dan Patrick, on his Tuesday morning show said that the Heisman Trust had asked him not to make his vote public. If they are asking voters to not reveal their votes in a systematic way that would really distort your projection. Say they only asked voters who they know voted for the winning candidate in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic (the regions without top candidates and therefore with the fewest number of publicized votes).
Based on the small sample size you have for those regions my rough estimate is that they would only have to hide 5-10 known votes from each of those 2 regions if they were doing it strategically. Plus its easy for them to intimidate voters with a veiled (or not) threat of taking away their vote next year. All-in-all it'd be relatively easy for them to manipulate your projection given your transparent methodology.
While in retrospect it should be statistically easy to observe if this kind of manipulation was done (if your projections for those regions are way off), I'm not sure what, if anything, you can do to prevent this in advance.
Is it something you've thought about or observed in past years?
Suh as greatest defensive player...here is an argument...
There have been a handful of defensive players nominated for the Heisman Trophy...only 5 have finished in the top 3 and only 1 has even won, even though his win was predicated on playing some WR and KR. Suh will be the 6th and the second from Nebraska.
Charles Woodson, 1st
Hugh Greene, 2nd
Alex Karras, 2nd
Dick Butkus, 3rd
Rich Glover, 3rd
When Sport Illustrated named their All-Century team, they included Hugh Green, Rich Glover, and Dick Butkus on their first team, and Charles Woodson on their 3rd team.
The best players have awards with their names. Butkus, Bednarik, Nagurski, Walker, Rimington, Ray Guy, etc... Suh is MOST CERTAINLY in that company.
Notice how the southwest(which covers nebraska, Suh's team) and the west (which covers Stanford, Gerhart's team) are the most lopsided because the voters there are so proud to have a heisman canidate while the other teams are more excited about the team that the canidates play for because they all had a huge shot at the nat'l championship.
@ Eric in KC
I would 100% agree with you. Suh deserves to be 2nd or 3rd, haha.
ingram! ingram! ingram! ingram! ingram!
unbiased before you spout off your nonsense you need to do some research b/c pelini said saban got him to where he is at today he said he didnt know half the thing about the schemes that he runs today so thank you nick saban for making pelini who he is today
Nice one. I am obviously pulling for the big guy, but he doesn't need to finish first to be in the conversation of best all time. :-)
Ingram is last in the West, but 2nd in the SW...and at the same time, he is 1st in the NE and MA, while Gerhart, Suh, and McCoy are all taking a beating. If anything, that shows that if you don't play east of the Mississippi, good luck with the NE and MA vote.
suh would be as good a running back as ingram or gerhart.
neither ingram or gerhart could carry suh's jockstrap as a defensive tackle.
ask any defensive player how much they would enjoy tackling suh as he carried the ball 40 times a game.
by the way, what is so great about SEC offenses. of course you will have a highly ranked defense if you play in a league with weak offenses.
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