164 Ballots: Ingram slips ahead of Gerhart. Suh close behind.
Well, we have a new leader in the Stiff Arm Trophy projection. Having added 42 more ballots to the mix, Mark Ingram is now narrowly leading - with 41.4%.
Toby Gerhart is close behind at 39.7%, followed by Ndamukong Suh at 37.2%. Colt McCoy seems solidly entrenched at fourth-place with 31% - and Tim Tebow is just happy to get a front-row seat in New York, with 12%.
So, what changed? A whole lot of ballots that included Ingram in the #2 spot - especially outside of the South. In terms of overall points, Ingram is now leading in the South, the Mid-Atlantic, the Northeast, and is in second place in the Midwest and the Far West. In the Southwest, he barely trails McCoy (though Suh is the huge leader there.)
Here's a regional breakdown of the points in each region. Keep in mind that the total number of ballots we've tracked varies a bit - and our projection methodology corrects for that (which is why you can't just add up the numbers.)
Kari Chisholm | December 8, 2009 | Comment on This Post (133 so far)
Looks like it's leaning toward another predictable outcome: an average-at-best player on a 13-0 team gets the award. Same thing happened with Eddie George, who was lucky to be called the sixth or seventh best running back in '95.
Suh and Gerhart are remarkable players on average teams. The others are average players on remarkable teams. If Ingram wins this thing, might as well just make it an MVP of the highest-ranked team award.
Would love to see hypothetical voting totals if votes were fairly apportioned vis-a-vis population.
I am a huge Suh fan and supporter, as well as a Nebraska alum. I could not DISAGREE with you more, Girth. I have watched Ingram and Suh all year, have not watched Gerhart, so can't speak to him. After watching both games this weekend, I felt it should be Ingram #1 and Suh #2. In the games where 'Bama needed him most, Ingram was a one-man wrecking crew.
He demoralized Virginia Tech, and against Florida, on THE BIGGEST STAGE OF THE WEEKEND, he lights them up for 113 yards rushing, 76 yards receiving and 3 rushing TDs.
I love my boy Suh as much as the next guy (have an autographed mini helmet to prove it); but, Ingram did everything needed to earn this award.
You have it right -- "Suh and Gerhart are remarkable players on average teams. The others are average players on remarkable teams."
Ingram is excellent, but not the best. Nobody should have anyone but Gerhart and Suh in the top two -- it becomes less clear after that.
John I disagree with you. The auburn game is proof of it ... if it wasn't for the rest of the team they wouldn't be in the MNC and he wouldn't be in consideration for the trophy.
I'm a Texas homer for Colt who seems to already be out of it so in that case between Ingram, Suh and Gerhart I would give it to the Cardinal.
Gerhart has better overall stats than Suh, and he's definitely had more consistency!
Ingram is anything but an average player. People forget he's a sophomore on a team that for a large part of the year had a one dimensional offense. Despite regularly having teams put 8 and 9 in the box he's still found a way to rush for over 1500 yards.
Ask a very good South Carolina defense that gave up 246 rushing yards to Ingram on a night Alabama's passing game could only produce 96 yards passing.
Suh and Gerhart are both excellent players who had great years much like Ingram. That will make for a very close ballot total in the end.
If it is going to a running back then it should definitely go to gerhart. He has way better stats than ingram and has been the only player on his team to do anything. Ingrams game against florida would have been gerharts 4th or 5th best game, but it was ingrams only 3td game. Whether suh or gerhart should win is a different question but i would love to see a true defensive player win for the first time (let's be honest woodson won it for his returns as well as his D).
You can't really compare Suh and Gerhardt's statistics. They play on different sides of the ball.
South Carolina's rushing defense finished at 46th in the country giving up 137 yards a game. Their pass defense is ranked 12th so that is the reason for the lackluster passing attack against them. And McElroy averaged 190 yards per game passing while only averaging 26 passes a game. That's not a too shabby compliment to a running back like Ingram.
Mark had 50 total yards in the Auburn game his worst game of the year
MI shared the backfield with Trent & Roy, and still put up great numbers. He had considerably more yards after contact than any other back in the country, and only has 194 less yards than Gerhart. He also has 62 less carries for a much better YPC average. They are all deserving, but to say he isn't shows you may not have watched him play very often. ROLL TIDE !!!
I can't believe you call yourself a Nebraska fan John and then assert that Ingram had a better performance than Suh last Saturday night. Yes Ingram ran well and for a good average, but as was pointed out that evening it was more a product of the outstanding line play in front of him as the other two backs on Alabama's team also ran for equally impressive yards-per-carry averages. Saturday night's performance was not about Ingram being the best player in the Nation, it was about a good player reaping the benefit of playing on a great team. The voting this year, if the award goes to Ingram, just really demonstrates what a farce the Heismann award has become.
When did the next Emmitt Smith become an average player at best and Ron Dayne 2.0: White Hope Edition become the most outstanding player?
Since Alabama is a deeper and better team, they didn't have to grind Ingram in games and saved his big touches for their better opponents. His only truly bad game was Auburn - he had 71 total yards and 2 TDs against Arkansas - and the rest of his mediocre numbers were because he only played a half. If this was an MVP award, sure Gerhart is the winner but Ingram was the most outstanding. Auburn this and Auburn that. It's ridiculous that the one game where it wasn't him leading the way or bailing Alabama out diminishes a season's worth of big game performances mostly in the second half or 4th quarter. Ingram saved Bama's tail around midseason when the OL and QB were struggling. No Ingram = No Alabama in the BCSCG.
Gerhart has better overall stats than Suh? I have no idea how that makes any sense whatsoever... I have to respect other people's opinions but that has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Maybe you meant offesive stats because then you would be right but that would still not make sense. They dont play the same position, in fact, they dont even play on the same side of the ball.
Gerhart was awesome but next year you will see another RB do what he did and perhaps do it better. Many will argue that he is not even the best RB this year... it is being debated. On the other hand, you havent seen anyone like Suh in a long time, nor will you again for a while. No one is debating that he is the best defensive player, let alone at his position.
I'm sorry, Ingram had more yards-after-contact than Gerhart? I find that hard to believe. Not saying you're wrong, I'm not gonna go look it up or anything, but Having watched a few of Gerhart's games I find it hard to believe that another back picked up more YAC while totaling 200 fewer overall. The guy was a bowling ball all season.
That Being said. Suh did everything he did without the assist of
1) Blockers paving the way,
2) A passing game that kept defenses honest (like Ingram had at least),
3) and an offense that could keep him off the field for more than a few minutes at a time (Nebraska's offense was more of a handicap to Suh and the Blackshirts than anything else)
I'm sorry but Suh should win this award. No, I take it back, I'm not sorry.
If Ingram or Gerhart had approached 2,000 yards, I'd consider them. But since everyone wants to talk stats about Suh and say 82 tackles and 12 sacks aren't that impressive for a DT, I'm gonna say anything less than 2K running or 4k passing just doesn't do anything for me for an offensive guy.
Actually for all those Ingram haters the Auburn game is proof of how good he is. They tailored their entire defensive game plan to stop him. Fully altering what they normally do. If that's not a judgement of an outstanding player I don't know what is? Because they gameplanned just for him it opened up the rest of the offense.
For Levi, Ingram had 885 yards after contact before the SECCG. He got about 50 on that 60-some-odd yard screen pass, so I would not be surprised if he is over a 1,000 yards after contact this season.
"Actually for all those Ingram haters the Auburn game is proof of how good he is. They tailored their entire defensive game plan to stop him."
This may be true, but it's hard to call a guy "great" when he gets completely shut down by a .500 team. Everyone in the stadium knew Toby Gerhart was getting the ball and he ran for 800 yards in his last four games.
Seriously, a Heisman Trophy running back has to be a virtually unstoppable player. Reggie Bush was like that, with perimeter speed and moves. Ricky Williams was like that with power and balance. Ingram is neither of the two - he's a great player on a great team but not a show-stopper at the position.
Next you'll tell me that the fact they almost lost the game with his weak performance is proof of how valuable Ingram is.
Auburn planned their game around neutralizing Ingram, and they succeeded in keeping him from having an effect on the game. Suh was double-teamed on at least half of the plays he was on the field every single game, and he produced season stats that are more like a DB or a LB than a DT.
Has anybody stated that Mark Ingram is the second coming of Barry Sanders? Mel Kiper has sure said that Suh is the best he's seen in the last 30 years.
OK, what kook-aid is Sam drinking. How in the world can you statistically compare Suh and Gerhart? Unless of course they played each other and Suh would be all over him. Suh had the distinct disadvantage playing with a mediocre offense, at best. He was on the field ALL the time and still had the stamina to do the things he did. If the award this year goes to one of the princess QB's or RB's, then just rename the Heisman Offensive player of the year. Since that's the only players who seem eligible because they put up "the numbers". (yeah, don't count Woodson, he played an entirely different position)
I would have voted for Jimmy Clausen. If a kicker would ever have a chance, I would have voted for Jordan Congdon, but since kickers have no chance, the point is mute.
"Next you'll tell me that the fact they almost lost the game with his weak performance is proof of how valuable Ingram is."
Actually, what I'll tell you is the fact that Stanford and Nebraska both had 4 losses is proof that neither Suh nor Gerhart are "The most outstanding Players". If they were th most outstanding, they would have carried their teams to wins much like Ingram did through the middle of this season for Bama. Bama is about to win their 13th National Championship and Mark Ingram is the Biggest Reason for that.
Why is everyone keying on what Ingram did against Auburn? The records and stats in this game never mean anything. Look up the history of this rivalry. This rivalry game alone has cost coaches their jobs after losing it for a couple of years. Mark Ingram plays on a defense oriented team where the offense is used to score enough to win not a run up the score and pad the stats kind of offense. He is the most outstanding player on the best team in college football right now. Alabama played one of the toughest schedules and even in the couple of cream puff games where they could have really padded his stats they did not. He did what he did against the better teams.
Nebraska has 4 losses.
Their first loss was by 1 point to VT in a game where the Nebraska offense had 1st and goal from the 9 and ended up PUNTING. If Nebraska had any sort of offense, they win that game at VT. Suh played lights out.
Their second loss was to Texas Tech in a game where Suh knocked the QB out for the next week. Again, NU lost because of their O. Early in the game, they threw a lateral pass that the WR didn't even try to get to. TT scooped and scored.
Their third loss was to ISU by 2 points because the offense had 8 E I G H T turnovers. They held ISU to 9 points. What more do you want Suh to do there?
Their fourth loss was by 1 point in the last second to the 2nd ranked team in the country. Suh had 4.5 sacks.
Suh should be remembered as one of the greatest DTs in CFB HISTORY. Gerhart? He's just this years Tommy Vardell. Ingram wasn't even the best player on his team (McClain). Tebow's stats are down this year. McCoy? Everyone saw what happened to McCoy when he faced a real defense.
I wasn't aware football is an individual sport, Legend. Anybody who's seen Nebraska's offense play this season knows that for them to even be in the Big 12 championship, let alone with a shot to win it, is a tremendous credit to Suh and the rest of the defense.
I don't think people appreciate how rare and special it is for a defensive tackle to lead his team in tackles, solo tackles, tackles for loss, sacks, and quarterback hurries, and be second on his team in passes defended.
"Why is everyone keying on what Ingram did against Auburn?"
Maybe because Toby Gerhart rushed more than TWICE the yardage in his poorest output of the season (82 yards against Wake Forest). Gerhart has been more productive on a game-by-game basis, and has outscored Ingram so much it's not even a contest.
"The records and stats in this game never mean anything."
Now you want to make excuses to throw out data. Next please.
"not a run up the score and pad the stats kind of offense."
Look at Stanford's record with lots of close games - they haven't been "padding the stats" against anybody.
He is the most outstanding player on the best team in college football right now. Alabama played one of the toughest schedules and even in the couple of cream puff games where they could have really padded his stats they did not. "He did what he did against the better teams."
Two Toby's four poorest games came against the two weakest teams on their schedule. Toby did the bulk of his damage against the best teams on the schedule.
Ingram averaged 6.2 yards a carry this season; Gerhart averaged 5.6. Both are very good figures, but I would probably only describe Ingram's average as outstanding.
Gerhart scored more, and had more yards, but he was also given the ball more (and did less with it per carry).
I'm not saying who I'd pick out of the two, because I don't know much about Stanford's schedule as far as the defenses they played, but I do think it's a tad unfair to unequivocally state something along of the lines of 'Gerhart had better stats than Ingram' or whatever.
Congrats to Suh for winning the Nagurski Award. He deserves it and wins it over Bama NG, Cody. Now when Ingram wins the Heisman, we'll all be happy.
Ingram averaged 154 yards against six of the top 28 defenses in the country. That alone should win him the Heisman. and Brian #1 the Florida game was the biggest game so far this year. #2 It was Ingram's 7th best game
"I don't think people appreciate how rare and special it is for a defensive tackle to lead his team in tackles, solo tackles, tackles for loss, sacks, and quarterback hurries, and be second on his team in passes defended."
I appreciate the fact that you guys need to recruit some linebackers.
I agree. There is a lot at stake this year for the Heisman Award. We will see whether this thing has any integrity. Suh should win, but Gerhart is also worthy. Ingram, Tebow, and McCoy are not.
Legend, Suh (or any of them, for that matter) can only play one side of the ball at a time (well, apart from Suh pitching in as a blocker on a 4th-and-short play against Texas -- which they made, too).
Besides the individual stats that Suh put up, look at how he and the rest of Nebraska's D held their opponents to such low scores and yardage totals. TU ended up with dismal offensive totals by their standards.
What I find funny is that Suh's picture on the main page at h------.com shows him running with the ball, not sacking a QB (how ironic would it be to show him sacking McCoy... heh...).
Just remember this in the arguement. The Heisman Trophy Trust asks voters to select the most outstanding college football player in the United States each year. Not the player, who is on one of the best teams and have their best stats. I don't believe Suh will win the Heisman, because many of the voters don't follow what the Heisman is all about. If Suh gets more 1st place votes than anyone and loses, what does that say for all the other voters. I guess the Heisman and the BCS are pretty similar then, find it hard to get things right.
I would argue that Bama has a better defense than Nebraska and that Rolando McClain is a better football player than Suh.
Don't get me wrong, Suh is an amazing football player but he is NOT the most outstanding. ........and Gerhart shouldn't even be in this conversation.
Topher, keep crying. I told you yesterday that it was still early, but in the end it would be Ingram. Wow, gonna bring home the National Championship AND the H-------. Roll Tide!
Please start a thread regarding the projections. With 163 ballots in, Suh has 223 points, Gerhart 198. But you're projecting Suh will end with 1034 and Gerhart 1104. Is this adjusted for regional bias? Are there a disproportionate amount of Big 12 votes counted so far or something?
Not so sure Suh would even start at Alabama.
Anyone that wants to downplay Ingram is out of their mind. He was an offensive force for Alabama all year long. Even in his worst showing, he helped the Tide by being the solitary key that Auburn focused on, which allowed the rest of the Tide to shine. The real proof of his candidacy is that in every major game against a quality opponent, Ingram showed up. He didn't pad himself against a scrub team and play average against the elite. This man is deserving of the Heisman.
Anyone that wants to downplay Suh is also out of their mind. I've never seen a DT have the effect on a game that Suh can from the DT spot. It's unheard of. Nebraska doesn't make the championship game without Suh, and they certainly don't make it a 1-point loss. This man is deserving of the Heisman.
Gerhart, while impressive, is not Heisman material to me this year. You can point to the defensive rankings, but I will point to the fact that he plays in a conference that does not defend the run often (which inflates their defensive numbers in this regard). He barely out-gained Ingram on a much larger number of carries. Where he shined was TD total, but I don't believe that's enough to earn the trophy. While I don't think he is Heisman material, he certainly shouldn't be out of the discussion.
Colt McCoy should not even be discussed this year, in my opinion. His numbers were pedestrian. He threw a large amount of picks, none more costly than against the Huskers. He looked completely overmatched. Made poor decisions left and right. It's one thing to get stiffed, it's another to have it cause you to make bad decisions.
I dont think many people realize the opponents that Mark Ingram faces. A so called 'average' performance in the SEC is a remarkable performance in any other conference. Also realize that Ingram splits time in the back field with another outstanding running back in Trent Richardson. This is a guy who will be in the Heisman race in the years to come.
KC Crawford - You Are an Idoit! - That is all.
Hey average joseph I just tell it like it is. If you're not man enough to play in the most dominate conference in America, how can your true talent be judged. To be the best you need to compete against the best.
KC Crawford that is just an ignorant statement. I think Ingram deserves it and will get it in the end but Suh would be a force on Bama's defense and I for one would love to have him. He is a totally different type player from Cody and would play end or outside tackle in our defense and would be even more dominant with Cody taking multiple blockers and leaving Suh with just a single blocker to attack.
Let's also not forget, in passes defended SUH is the only DT in the top 100!!!! in that category and he ranks like 14th...
In the Iowa State game he blocked two field goals as well. In the Missouri game, he had a key interception too (almost two). I guarantee that if bothe Gerhardt and Ingram lined up against him...they would NOT get their average YPC.
And to the numbskull that pointed out the Auburn changed their whole defensive plan to stop Ingram and that is proof that Ingram deserves this?? How about SUH having his numbers while being double and triple teamed ON EVERY PLAY!!!
Ingram isn't even the MVP on his own team! Let alone the best player in the country.
rtr12, you are right. i was just venting frustration over all these people jumping on the suh band wagon just because he is the sexy choose.
First of all picking the most outstnding player in all of college football is a joke anyway,, it cant be done when there is so many different factors such as not playing the same teams etc,, with that said if the award goes to the most outstanding player, Suh gets it hands down. But we know that is not always the case, he will not get it primarily as a result of the boneheads voting out there that do not believe a pure defensive player should win it.. Like one voter said, he may not win the heisman as he should, but he is the only one that has grown men drooling over him at the next level. BAMA fans dont get so cocky, you wont be able to block kicks to survive a you did against Tennessee, Texas has better athletes and they will match up well. One good game agaisnt a strugglig Florida teams does not mean that will happen a month from now. These SEC blind people put down Texas for having a somewhat close game with Texas A&M,, it is a rivalry game but you guys only buy into that when it is your SEC teams, it menas something then but not for anyone else around the country. Also when mentioning the number of National Championships a team has lets keep it to modern history,, I personally dont care what happened back in 1939 when there was 6 teams playing fooball.
Suh should win the heisman and the team that prpares the best will win the National Championship. Nebraska is on the way back and then we will OWN the SEC as Osborne did, take that to the bank. Dont cry SEC guys,I agree that the SEC over the years has been the best conference top to bottom I dont doubt that, but there have been many years that Nebraska and Oklahoma would have run through thru the SEC better than even the Spurrier Floria teams did. Again you only give credit to owning conference when it happens in the SEC as Spurrier did, side note Neb vs Folida 96 Fiesta bowl. if you still doubt that look at how many times the SEC Champ played the old Big 8 runner up and the Big 8 runner up spanked that booty!!If you doubt that look it up with the Sugar Bowl over the years. Nebraska was 3-0 against SEC champions in the 80's as just ne example and our fans dont shoot each other either!
When is the next update on this site for the counted and projection?
That Robinson kid, I think that is his name, is a better running back at Alabama than Ingram is!!! So the future looks good for you guys down the road. Seriously I have no big problem if Ingram gets the Heisman, I do find it amazing that Alabama has never had a Heisman winner so maybe it is about time!
**Good Vibes on a different subject for Alabama, Nebraska and Penn State, I think it is great that these temas have stayed with Tradition and not gone to that HIP retro uniforms every other game etc.. For example Florida deserved to lose in those all whites they wore last Saturday!!! You want to be HIP and have style start a clothing line, this is football baby!!
suthernguy with sense, You may not want to talk about championships in 1939 but you will talk about the 80's. lets talk now.today. How many big 12 teams are in the bsc? You remind me of auburn fans. we talk about our 12 nat'l titles and they say we live in the past, but they are the first to say oh, we won 6 in a row and atleast we have 2 heisman winners. let's talk present day.
Crawford,, the baby boomers were at least alive during the 80's, 90% of our society wasnt back in the Ice Ages. Nothing wrong with History and it is to be proud of,, i just put a lot more emphasis on what has been done in moden history when there has been real competition in football. The 80's comment was just an example to validate a point. If it is all now,, well only Florida fans can boast because as of "NOW" they are the only and last national Champs!!It changes year to year and it always will.
In response to Suh's "inconsistency" mentioned above. In most games he was double and triple teamed. Not only did he tear it up regularly, but by drawing 2 to 3 offensive players, he allowed his teammates to rack up stats and the defense to essentially play 10 on 9 or 10 on 8. That would be an intangible stat that you cannot compare.
Not only that, but a DT typically is not a player with these kind of stats. They're job is to bust open holes for linebackers. Nebraska rarely had to blitz because Suh and the front 4 were so outstanding.
Southernguy that struggling Florida team was 2 games away from being annointed the best team to ever play. If they had beaten Bama they would have been favored over Texas and had they won both games they would have likely had a 2 time Heisman winner and 3 National Titles in 4 years. They were on a 22 game win streak.
I in now way think Texas will be a pushover but we as Alabama fans are excited about the prospect of winning our 13th title (yes 13) and possibly our first ever Heisman. Nebraska is a great University and traditional power, but to just assume that they will own the entire world in a couple years is just plain rediculous. Pelini has them playing as good as they have played since Osborn and might well bring them back to prominance but they still have to bypass several teams in their own conference first.
The southeast(plus Texas and Cali) is the center of the world for football right now and until that changes they will continue to dominate(all of the last 6 titles and playing for another).
Auburn has no right to talk smack to anyone, their only half way successfull seasons always involved cheating so dont punch below the belt and compare me to Auburn fans, Ouch thats just way to low.
southernguy with sense, sorry about the auburn comment, that is pretty low.I look forward to some of the tradition powers like nebraska getting back into the picture. nothing like that alabama helmet, the nebraska n and yes that damn longhorn
I believe Ingram is not just an "average-at-best player" - the main reason his numbers are less than Gerhart is that he is sharing the backfield with 2 other very good running backs every game and sometimes a third one. He does not get as many carries or chances because Gerhart is used on more plays. Suh is a great defensive player but I don't think he contributed as much as Ingram or Gerhart to team wins.
Ingram vs. Gerhart.
All you have to do is compare the stats each had against the 3 WORST rated rush defenses they faced this season. You will see that Gerhart had MANY more rushes against poor teams, thus padding his stats against the weak sisters and trying to coast on big games against "name" teams that aren't any good this season (USC, ND). Saban could have kept feeding Ingram the ball to just pad his stats and he'd have 2,000 yards rushing...but that wouldn't benefit the TEAM'S championship goals. Meanwhile, Stanford had nothing to lose with 4 losses on the season. See what Ingram did against Va Tech, South Carolina, LSU, and Florida. Three of those teams are in the final BCS top 15. It's not even close people...Ingram SHOULD win this going away. I'll be surprised if he does because of all the politics, but he should win it.
According to this week's NCAA statistics, Ingram faced six of the top 28 defenses in the country (No. 4 Florida, No. 14 Virginia Tech, No. 15 South Carolina, No. 16 Tennessee, No. 24 Ole Miss and No. 28 LSU). And in those six games, Ingram rushed for 924 yards, averaging 154 yards per game(that's 6 yards per carry) and scoring seven touchdowns. Gehart has faced two of the top 28 defenses in the country. Ingram also split time with another future AA, didn't play in the 4th qtr. of the Arkansas game or the 2nd half of two other games. If he had as many carries as Gehart he'd have about 2000 yds.
The lamest argument I've ever heard is that Ingram shouldn't win because "he wasn't even the best player on his team." So McClain is a great LB...definitely, he just won the Butkus Award, but we all know the Heisman goes to offensive players. Ingram shouldn't be penalized because Saban recruits well and there's talent behind him on the depth chart. Geez...very lame argument...but that's all people have because the FACTS support Ingram winning if you really look at stats in big games, the competition faced, and what kind of team the player has lead all season long.
By what we see right now, Suh isn't getting a "token" 3rd place vote as a tribute to a defensive player that some thought he would. A way for a voter to show his respect, but not "waste" their vote (in their mind). I am encouraged by the number of 1st place votes for Suh, and if he starts getting some of those 3rd place votes, it might get interesting. I wonder if some don't release their votes because they would be embarassed for voting Tebow first, etc...
Our local idiot, DeArmond in the KC Star (Hammer and Sickle) voted Tebow first, McCoy second, and Danerio Alexander (from Missouri) 3rd. Alexander was the leading receiver in the nation, but didn't come on until the last 4 or 5 games of the season, when MU schedule lightened up vs Colorado, Baylor, Kansas State, Iowa State, and Kansas (1 bowl team who was 6-6).
Tebow, isn't really any better than Scott Frost for Nebraska, who rushed and passed for 1,000 in the same season and won a National Championship. The only difference was in his sophomore year, Tebow ran the ball at the goal line and racked up TDs, whereas, Frost could hand it off to Ahman Green. Both were fast and physical. Frost made a living in the NFL as a safety. Let's see if Tebow can do the same. McCoy is the Ron Dayne, lifetime acheivement vote. Ingram is a great powerful running back, but not sure if he is even the most outstanding player on his own team. His back up running back, Richardson, looks like he would have done the same or better had he started this year. Just my 2 cents.
For everyone that keeps saying Gerhart is the best candidate for this position...I have a question. Some have said that he is the ONLY player on his team to do anything. Right? I didn't watch him at all this year, but know that Ingram shared his time on the field first with Richardson and several other RB's. Next he has receivers that can catch the ball that also had time other than Ingram. I am sorry, but you just can't compare Gerhart and Ingram. The two teams play in completely different conferences against completely different defenses and Ingram has a team that he plays along with where Gerhart sounds like a one man offense for Sanford. If you put the two in the same conference against the same opponents, Ingram would out run him anyday...and as a sophmore too! RTR!
GO CHAD, GO CHAD
I agree with all the talk about Suh and Gerhart being remarkable players on average teams. However, Ingram is a remarkable player on a remarkable team. Ingram averaged more yards per carry in a far tougher conference known for it's tough defences. Suh dominated on a D in a conference known for it's offences. I put Ingram and Suh far ahead of the rest of the competition.
CONGRATS TO ROLANDO MCCLAIN FOR WINNING THE BUTCUS AND LAMBERT AWARDS AS THE MOST OUTSTANDING LINEBACKER IN THE NATION. HE SHOULD BE GETTING AS MUCH HEISMAN ATTENTION AS SUH.
I seriously cannot believe how blind people are. Ingram isn't the MVP of HIS OWN TEAM, much less the country. Rolando McClain means far more to Alabama than Ingram does. How can a guy that got benched against Auburn (Trent Richardson was far more effective) be the best player in the country? No way. That's absolutely absurd to even suggest that. Toby Gerhart is 10 times the player Ingram is, the guy's worst game is at least twice as good as Ingram's worst. Stanford is talentless aside from Gerhart, he is truly doing it all on his own, while Ingram has the advantage of a powerful offensive line, a serviceable quarterback, and defenses can't focus only on him because he isn't even the best running back on the roster. Hopefully the voters get it right and award the player who made a terrible team into a contender and the player who was made into a good player by a great team.
Look up Gerhart's stats when he was a sophomore and junior. What do you think Ingram's will be when he is a senior if he makes the improvements Gerhart did. Ingram will pass Gerhart 3 or 4 times overall. I know it is not relevant to the argument but it is interesting.
Gerhart is a good player playing for a mediocre team playing a cupcake schedule in a cupcake conference. It does not mean he is the best player in college. Put him against the same defensive teams Imgram played against and he would be way down the list. He is OK but not great.
Suh is far better than Gerhart as a great player but too bad he plays for Nebraska. He can't win the Heisman because of Nebraska's record. That is just the way it is.
I just want to say it's nice to see people using some common sense and logic when evaluating the heisman candidates rather than just rooting for the one in your conference or the one whose jersey your girlfriend wears to bed. When the numbers are evaluated honestly and based on what each player was up against, it is really clear who the heisman should be and hopefully the voters will get it right in New York.
Someone mentioned that the Auburn game is proof of how good Ingram is because Auburn had to change its entire gameplan. Every single team that has faced Nebraska this year has changed their entire gameplan because of Suh. Guess what? IT NEVER WORKED! I'm guessing you missed the Missouri game, in which he won the game by himself. Dude can fight through double and triple teams like no other. I have never seen a player like Suh. If I had a vote, he would get mine....hands down! Problem is, people are scared to vote for a defensive guy, especially a defensive tackle, especially on a 4 loss team not going to a BCS bowl. That is a shame.
Auburn hates Alabama so much that they never even counted on having a chance to win against Bama. They set up their entire game plan to do everything possible to prevent Alabama from having a Heisman trophy winner. The fact that Ingram recognized that and didn't push to get more touches during that game to help his own numbers is a mark of what a great team player he is.
Ingram could have easily padded his stats to surpass Gerhart by a lot with his total number of rushing yards. Ingram was taken out of TWO games by the end of the 2nd quarter. He was also taken out of 1 or 2 other games by around the end/beginning of the 3rd/4th quarter. Also, his average yards per carry is .5/yards more. Let's not forget he plays against defenses that are vastly superior on average than those of the Pac 10. Suh is great, but it's really hard to quantify. He shouldn't have any worries though as he'll be a top 5 pick in the draft.
"Auburn hates Alabama so much that they never even counted on having a chance to win against Bama. They set up their entire game plan to do everything possible to prevent Alabama from having a Heisman trophy winner."
Ingram advocates have turned delusional with wild conspiracy theories. There is absolutely no way a Division I coach would gameplan not to win the game but to inflict public relations damage on an opponent.
"The fact that Ingram recognized that and didn't push to get more touches during that game to help his own numbers is a mark of what a great team player he is."
So now NOT performing is actually a sign of a great player?
If Ingram didn't have to share carries, we would not even be having this discussion. He averaged almost an entire ypc than Toby. If he got the ball as much, he would have run for 2000.
The fact is guys, he is simply more productive each time he carries the ball.
Gerhart's numbers were not at all better than Ingram's when you look at them in depth. In fact, they aren't as good.
1. To start with, Ingram's 180+ all purpose yards and 3 TDs Saturday night against what was allegedly the best run defense in the country is a more impressive game than any on Gerhart's resume, if in fact the Gator defense is as good as we've been told. No RB during the last two regular seasons has for 100 yards against the Gators...not Montario Hardesty, Knowshon Moreno, or Charles Scott, and all were 1,000 rushers.
2. Gerharts stats were padded by lots of carries against awful teams. The worst three rushing defenses Stanford faced were Washington State, Notre Dame, and San Jose State. All were among the worst in the country. WSU and SJSU were both worse than any other team Bama played. Gerhart averaged over 25.3 carries against those three teams. In contrast, Ingram averaged only 9.7 carries per game against Bama's three weakest opponents against the run, Chattanooga, FIU, and North Texas. Ingram gets over a half yard per carry more than Gerhart.
3. Great running backs are threats to catch the ball out of the backfield. Gerhart fans don't want to look at receiving stats, because his aren't very good. The notion that he's a running back and not a receiver is foolish. Ingram has over 300 yards receiving and 3 TDs against the best pass defenses in the country. Six of Bama's opponents are in the top 20 in pass defense, and 8 are in the top thirty. Those top six opponents all had better pass defenses that Stanford's toughest opponent. And while Gerhart fans would try and counter that argument by saying that Stanford just doesn't utilize their backs out of the backfield, you can bet that if Gerhart was a pass catching threat, Harbaugh absolutely would be using him in that way.
To simply look at Gerhart's total yards running and touchdowns and conclude that he's had the better year is junior high school logic at best.
"But in the end, my decision came down to the player who consistently produced week in and week out against top competition." --Rittenberg
That's Toby Gerhart. His best games came against the top, ranked teams.
You can't go by Suh's stats when he was double and triple teamed all year.
"Auburn hates Alabama so much that they never even counted on having a chance to win against Bama. They set up their entire game plan to do everything possible to prevent Alabama from having a Heisman trophy winner."
Ingram advocates have turned delusional with wild conspiracy theories. There is absolutely no way a Division I coach would gameplan not to win the game but to inflict public relations damage on an opponent.
Topher...I have to agree with you on this one.
Here's the deal. I won't argue with any of you Suh people because it would be hell not to vote for him. That guy is a unique talent that is a pure pleasure to watch. This coming from a Bama fan.
If Suh wins it, you get no complaints from me. I'm a Bama grad, so I'll make no bones about my bias, but I also watched all of our games and many of everyone elses', and I think that there were times against very large/very fast defenses that Ingram put the entire team on his back and willed us to victory. Don't get me wrong, you ain't doing anything without blockers....but neither is any other back.
Finally, Ingram had over 1000 yards after contact on the season, averaged more yards per carry, and had many less carries than Gerhart AND PLAYED AGAINST MUCH TOUGHER DEFENSES. Gerhart is a good player, no doubt, but you all act as if he's doing this against an NFL caliber front 7 every week without an Oline. And I think the best player on Stanford's team (or will be in the future) is that QB....now that guy can ball.
If I were neutral, it'd be a toss-up between Suh and Ingram, but I'm leaning Ingram. There are at least 5-7 better players in the country than Gerhart.
wow.. this is amazing. I thought this was supposed to be an individual award... how the HELL IS INGRAM AT THE TOP?!?!?! WOW. lets give to to the best team's average player ??? WOW.
"The fact is guys, [Ingram] is simply more productive each time he carries the ball."
Gotta face the facts on the YPC argument:
-Against Arkansas and Auburn, Ingram gained 80 yards on 33 carries. That's less than 3 yards per rush!
-If you want to talk YPC, Ingram's backups both bested him in yards per carry against Florida. By a LOT.
The argument that Ingram "carried" Alabama's moribund offense through its midseason funk doesn't hold up when you consider that Gerhart accounts for more of his team's points than Ingram. If Ingram had been carrying the offense he should have been scoring a lot.
In regards to Girths' comment, I would have had no issues if Tommy Frazier would have won it that year, but Eddie was equally deserving. Some numbers from his Senior year: As a senior in the 1995 season, George rushed for a school record 1,927 yards and 24 touchdowns, an average of 152.2 yards per game. One of his best performances of the year was in a 45-26 win over the University of Notre Dame, where he rushed for 207 yards, his third 200 yard game of the season. He also rushed for a school-record 314 yards and scored 3 touchdowns in OSU's victory over Illinois.
Thanks for the hat tip. Ingram advocates can be reasonable and rational and still make a good case, no reason for someone to pull up with crackpot kookery.
Terrell Suggs of ASU makes Suh look like a school girl and he got no consideration whats so ever. There have been plenty of guys that dominant a D like Suh over the last decade. If he had an avg game against Texas he wouldnt even be in the top 8. The Heisman isnt a about one game, its about a season. IF you want the most complete season with the best totals against the best teams... look no further than Toby Gerhart.
What an interesting webspace. I like the numbers you fellas have come up with. good track record too. Anyway, I'm now watching as a fan.
Now, as for the candidates. Any of the top 3 will be fine for a H* winner. Ingram is a solid choice this year, as is Gerhart and Suh. The problem voters seem to be having with voting for Suh, is his numbers are hard for the common voter to grasp and compare to. The people who actually make a living as draft analysts for the NFL, know what a defensive lineman is worth, and have an easier time discerning stats for this position on the field. Most die-hard fans of the sport most likely don't watch the defense closely enough to fully grasp what great defenses do when compared to other defenses of the same caliber. It is exceptional to see a DT compose the numbers he has AFTER watching how he accrued them. To see the man fight through double teams, and in some instances, triple team, really puts his numbers into perspective. I don't want to make light of his teammate's numbers, but Crick has benefited from teams focusing on the potential damage a player like Suh can create. If Suh played for Alabama, teams would have a HARD time running on them. You give Cody a one-on-one assignment every down, and your going to have a QB with a concussion by the end of the game. The fact that this guy(Suh) demands this kind of attention speaks volumes to people who understand what is really going on here.
With that said, Suh will not win this award. The perception of the voters will prevent this. I had read that some voters have claimed that it is an "offensive award", so they will only vote for the best offensive player. Hey, that seems to be the way some voters (and fans) seem to view the award. It's mostly politics in my opinion. Mr. Suh will have a truck load of hardware anyway, and it seems being invited to NY is a feat in this day and age anyway. I look forward to seeing the top five in the NFL for years to come, as well as Spiller. Who ever wins the award is very deserving.
Topher can't get over his jealousy and uses **Two** games for his YPC analyis? LMFAO. On the season, Ingram's is higher....try again.
Unfortunately, it sounds as if many voters are favoring Ingram simply because Alabama has NEVER (gasp!) had a Heisman winner. Alabama's biggest rival (Auburn University) has had TWO (Pat Sullivan and Bo Jackson). In fact, it seems as if Alabama is pleading for voters to reward IT, rather than a player. Ingram is a good running back, but he needed that extra championship game just to earn enough yards and stats so he could finally be called "the league's best running back." (Didn't deserve that title in the regular season, interestingly.) Gerhart and Suh are truly the most deserving PLAYERS.
My feeling is that you have to judge the players by the standards of their respective positions. If that's the case, Suh wins. His year was historically good for a DT. I have no problem with Ingram, Gerhart, or even Spiller winning it either. All terrific and valuable players. But of those 4, only Suh virtually redefined his position. That has to mean something IF the standard of the award is the "best player". It's why Woodson won his.
If I had a ballot, it would be Suh, Gerhart, and Ingram in that order. Gerhart gets kudos for being a great back on an average team. Stanford went as he did. Ingram was not only terrific, but steady as they come. I like him a lot.
But neither of those two had the year that Suh had.
Frankly, I don't even understand why Tebow and McCoy are even in NYC, much less ciphoning off the "celebrity" votes from better players this year. It should have been Spiller and Moore in their places.
Why Ingram? He played in the SEC. I am bias, but look at the numbers. Gerhart averaged 5.6 per carry but only played 2 teams in the top 30 in defense - AZ and Az State where he dropped over 1 yard per carry or 4.5. The rest of his teams were "gemme" defenses. The Pac-1 (and I mean 1) is just not a national power. Suh is a beast - but his conference is all passing. And when it is passing, good defensive players look great since they just charge the QB - and great players like Suh look fantastic. I would love to see a defensive player get it, but in my bias, I don't think he is the best defensive player in the NCAA (but he is damn close).
Ingram averaged 6.1 yards per carry - of which most were YAC (yds after contact). And he played 5 top rated defenses and averaged 7.2 per carry against them. So when the "going got tough" he increased his output by 1.1 yds per carry. I think that says it all.
P.S. And he was not even close to being the best player on the team -but the others are defense, so no StiffArm chance for them - which is why I would not be that upset with Suh.
seriously people. how can suh not be the Most outstanding player on any team in America this year?
His presence had to be accounted for on EVERY play by EVERY team Nebraska played.
Also, as a DT he led his team in Passes Defensed? Seriously? how is that possible?
He ranks in the top of the whole country in that category. as a Defensive Tackle!
COME ON VOTERS give the Man his due!
he is the most outstanding player of the year.
Take out the 113 yards rushing and 3 TDs Mark Ingram had in the SEC Championship Game (an EXTRA game), and he falls way, way behind Gerhart.
I agree with QED..... Suh has been fantastic all year, even when he was doubled teamed. Did anyone notice the tackle he made on Colt McCoy with only his right arm as he was fighting off an offensive lineman with his left.
I have heard TV commentators compare him to Hall of Famers like Howie Long, Reggie White, and Lawrence Taylor. Not bad company.
If the Heisman is truly for the best player (someone that impacts the game and the outcome) Suh truly did that. By attracting double teams, he allowed other Husker defenders to shine. He impacted the game in more than one way, including a TD on a pick.
I know the Heisman has been traditionally about the offensive player, but it is time to break with tradition.
Nebraska's offense was "offensive"--horridly so this year. It has no identity. Without Suh, Nebraska loses more than four games. He's given identity to the defense. Imagine what Nebraska could've done with an offense that could actually execute the plays and not fumble and drop passes and...need I go on? That said, I've been thoroughly impressed by Gerhardt's toughness...reminds me of Nebraska's old "smash mouth" identity of the 90s. Ingram is on an extremely balanced and well-coached team and will likely be hoisting the BCS championship trophy. All said, the Suh's of college football come around so rarely and he should be recognized for being the most outstanding player...for without him, Nebraska is...well, you know.
The guy who said Gerhart has beet stats this Sue is just wrong. I don't know if there has ever been a DT who has lead his team in tackles on a major college football. Certainly not in modern day football.
Sue's 82 tackles from the DT position is far more impressive then any number that Gerhart has.
Mark May said that Suh is the best defense lineman he has seen in the last 25 years. He also said that he would vote for Ingram. If Suh is indeed the best in the last 25 years, then wouldn't it be safe to say that anyone who beats him out should be at the very least the best at their position in the last 25 years. Because that is what the Heisman is---The Best Player in the Game...
Mark May is one of the reasons why Suh will not win this award. It's the perception that this award must go to an offensive player, no matter how dominant the player may be on the defense. It looks as if Ingram has this award all but tied up. Good for him. He is deserving.
If I had a vote it would go for the DT in Suh.
Ingram only had 30 yards in his game against Auburn (not 50 as someone said above). Auburn has a HORRIBLE defense and for a player to only have 30 yards against it does not deserve to come close to winning the Heisman.
I am a diehard Bama fan who has had the luxury of seeing quite a bit of Ingram, Suh, and Gerhart (thanks to a nice cable package & DVR) this season.
I am torn between Ingram & Suh, as well as what the simple instruction to voters really means. My thoughts:
First, I think it is very difficult to compare objectively Ingram and Suh - the two I think it should come down to. Offensive players have the advantage of having #s that make it easier to show their value to the team's winning %, e.g. yards = first downs, which lead to points and more points will win games. For instance, I can say with almost certainty that Ingram won some important games for Bama against top echelon talent defenses in difficult environments.
However, despite the fact that Suh is a truly unique talent and once-in-a-couple-decades DT, I can't objectively say how many points he kept off the board for opponents, which gave his team X wins. This is how I think a lot of voters look at it these days, and they shouldn't, but this the reality we're dealing with.
Second, while I respect Gerhart's abilities, the quality of defensive lines and linebackers he played against make me question the strength of his numbers. I recall a couple of his games where he broke several big ones on account of the linebackers making junior high mistakes and not having the raw ability to make up for those mistakes. He's a great one who carried his team, but not to a Pac 10 championship in what I would consider a down year for Pac 10 defenses.
"Take out the 113 yards rushing and 3 TDs Mark Ingram had in the SEC Championship Game (an EXTRA game), and he falls way, way behind Gerhart."
Let Gerhart play (an extra game) against a a top 5 defense like Florida and he wouldn't even be in this conversation. Brandon Spike would mop the field with Toby. Florida wins that game by 30.
In response to Girth: you have absolutely lost your mind calling Ingram an average at best back and referring to Gerhart as remarkable. Let me be very clear. I absolutely LOVE Gerhart but Ingram should win the award. I hate to let facts get in the way but let me give you a couple. Ingram faced 5 teams in the SEC and Virginia Tech that are ranked in the Top 30 in total defense (Fla #4, Virginia Tech #14, So.Caroline #15, Tennessee #16, Ole Miss #24 and LSU #28) Stanford and your boy Gerhart faced 1, thats right..1(Arizona #21). Coach Saban NEVER padded stats, Gerhart had 62 more carries than Ingram due to the fact that Stanford was still in competitive games, if Mark would have carried the ball 311 times this year he would have has around 1900-1950 yards. Ingram had 322 receiving yards and 3 TD's to Toby's 149 yards and 0 TD's. Ingram is anything BUT an average back! GO GATORS!!!!
When are we gonna see a new update?
Perhaps the best way to look at this is historically. Which player could be considered for the trophy in years other than this one? No offensive players truly standout when compared to past winners. Neither Gerhart or Ingram could hold a candle to Bush, Jackson, Allen, Sanders, Simpson, etc. They resemble the winners which we still question such as Dayne, George, and Salaam. Gerhart and Ingram should not win because they are the only offensive players left. Suh is one of the best defensive players EVER. He was critical to his team, he had outstanding stats, he had consistent play, and he is truly "outstanding." He is not the best one leftover.
Everyone saying Gerhart has better stats than Ingram needs to check the number of carries between the two. Gerhart has more total yards, but he also has close to 70 more carries. In yards per carry, Ingram holds a 6.2-5.6 advantage. If you extrapolate him to Gerhart's carries, he finishes with 1,900+ yards rushing.
Wouldn't be surprised if you compared overall rushing defense rankings of opponents that he also gained his 6.2 per carry against stronger defensive fronts than Gerhart did.
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